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CID
 Friday, August 10 2012 @ 07:54 AM UTC (Read 4924 times)  
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Hey everyone!

So I was trying to traverse the Wiki of Lies and found it's quite I tangled mess. I've been playing around with some stuff and think that with a little work we could make it a lot easier to find stuff. Just because it is filled with lies, half truths, old information and whatever else, doesn't mean that we need to make it difficult to find.

I just thought I'd suggest some stuff here and see if people objected to the idea, or felt like helping out. I know I have no control of the wiki, but I thought if those who used it felt like tweaking to a little we could better it.

The biggest thing I could suggest would be to organizes things together that fit together. Such as putting all the user profiles under dramatis_personae. For those that don't know you can do this by linking your profile dramatis_personae:'your_page' (without the ' '). We could also do this with stories, places and other things. Obviously not everything needs to be under something. This would also make the site map easier to use (Button on the bottom right that list all the pages).

One person would have doing this as pages would need to be moved and links fixed.

Also I was going to look at making pages for the links that lead nowhere. Could get rid of them, but not looking to mess with other peoples content without an okay. If there are links we should at least make lies and such for them. It's the least we can do!

Well if anyone likes the idea let me know.


Duane "C.I.D." O'Malley
 
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Full Metal Lion
 Friday, August 10 2012 @ 10:48 AM UTC  
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For those playing at home, here's a link to a page explaining namespaces.

Quote by: CID
Could get rid of them, but not looking to mess with other people's content without an okay.

You, sir, make a horrible vandal. And also, this "I know I have no control of the wiki" malarkey. It's like you have no devotion to the concept of Lies!

Now, I am slightly wacky on lack of sleep, but this sounds like a great and noble goal, which I shall attempt to aid you with. "You have my keyboard", and such. I have a few minor issues to raise, but first I'd like to thank you for telling me about the Sitemap. It rather makes the index obsolete. I'll go tell the Index such.

Issues:
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Dramatis personŠ (Latin: "persons or characters of the drama") is a phrase used to refer collectively, in the form of a list, to the main characters in a dramatic work.
Ergo, player pages shouldn't be in that namespace. They should be in their own "player" space.

Why should only one person move the pages into the namespaces? Unless that person can use some wiki magic to automate the process, of course.

If un-automated, it's a pretty big undertaking. Here's what I see us needing:
Players
Stories/Scenes
-Full Metal Loin's Tuesdays or, rather, a lower namespace for every series
Programming
Songs
Enquirer for the more newspaper-like features. Maybe.
Newb things for rookies. Maybe. Rookies aren't known for their wiki-skills, so it might be wasted effort
Quests if we decide to copy quest text to the wiki
-Watcher? I 'Ardly Know 'Er! each quest chain would get a lower namespace
And there are probably a few which escape me at the moment. That's quite a lot of copy-pasting and link-correction.


 
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Buddleia
 Friday, August 10 2012 @ 04:10 PM UTC  
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Hi there!

I agree, the Wiki of Lies is a tangled mess. As well as all the Lies, the Search function is useless, many article names are unhelpful as to their contents, and it's just really hard to find things.

I applaud your motivation, but I am not sure if your proposed method is a good idea, simply because of how a dokuwiki seems to work. Neutral

Bear in mind that changing the names of the articles will change the urls, many of which are already bookmarked by many people, and shared around to help others and especially new players. As soon as you start changing the urls by adding in namespaces or clarifying the titles, the links and Tinyurls etc will no longer work. Also, while having long, amusing namespaces is entertaining to the person composing them, it's a great pain when everyone else is trying to find and guess the new ones to update their bookmarks, not to mention when everyone is editing all the articles to link to the new updated pagenames.

Not that categories are a bad idea. Things are much easier to find if they are organised. For example, all of Hairy Mary's programming tutorials are already under the namespace Places, along with nearly all of the other Places pages (not the old Dwellings page, not the S1 Dwellings, and not the Trex:Componentlist or Trex:weathercontrol.) However, they were created there, not moved there.

Since we can't add tags to articles, and using Namespaces to create categories changes the urls ... I would have thought that making a simple List of Useful Pages (in contrast to the automatically-generated Index and the why-do-we-even-have-this player-written Index), and Category Lists (with a list of all of the articles in each category) would be more effective. And editing the front page - it's getting pretty long and confusing, and while it's funny to the people who already know lots of things, it's frustrating to the people who went there searching for help.

Anyway, if you're going to start categorising the wiki, by whatever method, I'd recommend first looking through the Index (and browsing some of the articles with unclear names) to see what there is, and try making a few lists of the categories that come out to you. If you're going to sort anything, first you need to have a look at what there is and decide how to sort it. How about collecting entries for the categories People, Places, and Stories, to start with? I wouldn't mind helping with sorting articles into categories.


Improbable Reference Links - goo.gl/MRBnb -------------- Land Registry (map of Places) ---- goo.gl/bpkRR
 
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Ada
 Friday, August 10 2012 @ 08:19 PM UTC  
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CID - not everyone's user profile makes sense (mine doesn't) and the Dramatis Personae is for short info only! Many many many userpages are HUGE. That said, I really think it ought to be more obvious on the front page! I can never find it when I am looking for it, for some reason, even though it's on there twice.

Clans, too, is another one that ought to have a better link. I know I looked up all the clans on the wiki when I started, and they're listed on the main page but not exactly that obvious...

Basically what I am saying I suppose is that it's the main page that needs work, more than anything else. Like Budd said, making lists (pages about people, logs, whatever) and having them clearly and obviously listed on the front page would be helpful. Moving pages - please, don't do that! (Though I would not complain if people merged some of the joke duplicate pages, and changed "cities" to "outposts"...)


 
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Awesome Fred
 Saturday, August 11 2012 @ 05:52 AM UTC  
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I know this is an out-there suggestion that may not even be relevant enough to the discussion at hand, but I think we should have an end goal of redesigning the Wiki's major contents to be essentially linked in-game as an ever-changing newspaper/gazette. It would include personals (dramatis personae), classifieds (classifieds), expert tips (guides), reports (RP stories), editorials (editorials), and a miscellaneous category for everything else that would go into the wiki but simply doesn't have an analogy for The Enquirer.

If we made a concentrated community effort to shift the wiki's perception into that, we could eventually go so far as to have the wiki main page be a persistent link in any Town as a link in the Council Offices or Comms Tent or whatever. We'd also have a unified theme so that we would always know what to change the problems to--people could be bolder in making edits to conform with the central concept of being a newspaper.

I'm sorry for being off the rails, I'm really tired.


 
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Ilovemath224
 Sunday, August 12 2012 @ 01:59 PM UTC  
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Is there a good reason why nobody's thought of adding redirects for old links to the new links? Because that would solve the "old links not working" problem.


 
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Collin-Vee
 Sunday, August 12 2012 @ 05:07 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Ilovemath224

Is there a good reason why nobody's thought of adding redirects for old links to the new links? Because that would solve the "old links not working" problem.



Two problems:

A: Most people are too lazy/busy/whathaveyou to scour for all the pages and set that up.

B: Those who COULD, probably don't know HOW, or are a bit too meek and polite to edit boldly. It's our curse! Polite people!


 
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Count Sessine
 Sunday, August 12 2012 @ 05:48 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Collin-Vee

Quote by: Ilovemath224

Is there a good reason why nobody's thought of adding redirects for old links to the new links? Because that would solve the "old links not working" problem.



Two problems:

A: Most people are too lazy/busy/whathaveyou to scour for all the pages and set that up.

B: Those who COULD, probably don't know HOW, or are a bit too meek and polite to edit boldly. It's our curse! Polite people!

Also, I believe redirects are not part of the standard DokuWiki toolset. CMJ would have to select and install a plugin.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Monday, August 13 2012 @ 06:29 AM UTC  
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Slightly less wacky now (Lies! I shall always be wacky!), I have a few thoughts (Lies! I never have thoughts!):

  • A thing that would make the wiki much easier to use would be opaque backgrounds for the footnotes.
  • So, if instead of using namespaces we just make lists of things, should we put the lists of lists on the front page? Perhaps as "Quick Lists to Interesting Places"?
  • If we do just list things, we already seem to have lists for everything I can think of.
  • If all else fails, you can do a manual redirect. As in "see [[X]]". Or via a humorous disreambiguation page.


 
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CID
 Tuesday, August 14 2012 @ 11:59 PM UTC  
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I actually thoughts this would be ignored or totally rejected. That being said, I'm glad to see some thoughts on the redesign.

I agree that this is a large undertaking and is meant to be a community undertaking. Also having a end plan will definitely be better than blindly trudging into this. If people do not want to worry about moving pages and renaming links (which does not take that much effort) so be it. I do like Awesome Fred's idea for the theme. Full Metal Lion also makes a lot of good points, especially about the footnotes! If we can get a little help from CMJ himself, by adding plugins or what-not that is awesome, but let's not count on it.

That said, this was never meant to change the Wiki or rewrite the articles, just organize it better. I think if that is going to be done we would need the say so from CMJ or someone who is allowed to make those decisions (Maybe a mod, maybe not. I don't know the power structure here.)
If we the community wants a Wiki of Truths, I would certainly be willing to help set it up.

I guess now it's just deciding how we'd like to precede. The idea of list is all well and good, but need to be checked and updated. And sure the moving of links would cause some problems early on, but could be resolved as the fix is implemented.

Note: I will take the time to look at all the different articles and organize them if no one else wants too. I plan on reading them all at some point anyways. But if the theme changes, that could change the organization, also that's a lot of stuff to look through...


Duane "C.I.D." O'Malley
 
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CID
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 04:31 AM UTC  
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((I'm a horrible person double posting. Now that, that is stated.))

How hard would it be to make a database that would store information from the game and be able to be pulled into say the wiki or a profile page. I ask that here instead of a new topic (which it might get). Because if one could be done simply (notice I did not say easily) we could pull information from that which would auto update instead of writing up pages that need to be updated all the time. Just a random thought.


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Full Metal Lion
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 05:40 AM UTC  
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What sort of information? What would we drive to England to get? Bread? Eggs? Milk? The Crown? Scenes? Flavour text? Source Code?

Also, that seems very hard, any which way.


 
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CID
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 06:26 AM UTC  
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Why does everyone want to drive to England?

dk, days on island, equipment, lvl, atk, def... pretty much any "stat" that is tracked anyways. All the information is already stored and can be extracted. And used else where, I've seen it done. I just don't know how hard it would be to use it else where. Now it might be simple to put it in say a profile page with II, but not as a tag for the wiki.


Duane "C.I.D." O'Malley
 
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Ada
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 09:19 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CID

Why does everyone want to drive to England?

dk, days on island, equipment, lvl, atk, def... pretty much any "stat" that is tracked anyways. All the information is already stored and can be extracted. And used else where, I've seen it done. I just don't know how hard it would be to use it else where. Now it might be simple to put it in say a profile page with II, but not as a tag for the wiki.




Wait, are you saying you want a way to export the data from the bio pages to the Enquirer? Why not just link your bio page to your profile?


 
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Collin-Vee
 Saturday, August 18 2012 @ 12:49 AM UTC  
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I could make a standard format for that sort of thing and do it manually, though a Greasemonkey script would be much more elegant. Just extract stat information from the bio page, and convert it into a useable format, then have it be manually inserted to the Wiki with whatever changes we need. All optional of course, some people might like their disorganized formatting.

TL;DR: I'll help however I can. Workhorse mode, ACTIVATE!


 
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CID
 Friday, August 24 2012 @ 06:00 PM UTC  
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Which bio page are you taking about?
Nevermind that's not important anyways.

Back to the real matter at hand. We need a agreed upon design. Which of the ideas already suggested should we used?
I wish there was a voting system.


Duane "C.I.D." O'Malley
 
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Ada
 Friday, August 24 2012 @ 10:05 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CID

Which bio page are you taking about?
Nevermind that's not important anyways.

Back to the real matter at hand. We need a agreed upon design. Which of the ideas already suggested should we used?
I wish there was a voting system.




http://www.improbableisland.com/bio.php?char=28581
That's a bio page (Ada's). This is where you get stats from, which you mentioned earlier, and Collin has offered to do that. (Collin you are so crazy that is so many!) But... I don't get why you want this information on the Enquirer?


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Saturday, August 25 2012 @ 03:25 AM UTC  
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Quote by: CID
We need an agreed upon design.

I object! The wiki works best when no-one is working together! Hell, half of us act like it's a newspaper, and half of us act like it's a tabloid. Truth and Lies. War and Silly. Up and Down. Tug and War. Chocolate and Peanut Butter. Maiko and Akira. Pans and Meat. Titans and Watchers. Me and My Train of Thought. Now go edit the wiki, you crazy Islander! The rest of the people here won't stop you, they'll just judge you. Quietly. Go!


 
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Collin-Vee
 Saturday, August 25 2012 @ 07:25 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada

Quote by: CID

....Collin has offered to do that. (Collin you are so crazy that is so many!)



Because I am a man with an unhealthy amount of free time. Throw in some hammers, a roll of duct tape, and a healthy dose of radiation, and you've got me!


 
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Collin-Vee
 Monday, August 27 2012 @ 03:22 AM UTC  
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.... e.e Not even gonna try to fix failure.


 
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