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 I'M SO TIRED OF STEAK (revamped food system thread)
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Matthew
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 04:17 AM UTC  
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Nope. You're punished for not eating and the new system makes it impossible for rookies to eat (or eat anything at all meaningful as far as not starving goes) at low levels. Something isn't right.

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

One does not buy anything on this free game.

I donate to the game. For donating to the island, CMJ gives supporter points, which used to be called "donator points" before WCG gave everybody a tiny income. CMJ established a way of redeeming these points, and one of the ways is to spend it on Builder's Brews. The game is free, and the brew is an optional bonus to anyone who supports the developer of the game.


That's kind of naive.

Of course people donate to redeem the points at the Hunter's Lodge, or at least I'm willing to bet 99% of them do. Selling Supporter Points is pretty much what CMJ's entire business model operates on. Saying making things (things that people have already bought, no less) less effective isn't relevant is pretty much not how anything works, ever.

Sorry.


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 04:57 AM UTC  
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I donate to support the game and such.. i know that what I buy with my points is a extra bonus to that. I'm happy with everything I've bought so far.. there are things I never will buy because I think them more a waste of points (like just getting req tokens, or smaller cig packs.. most cigs in general, and small packs of quills)

I admit I donate more when there is something shiny I want, like the creator bundle I got two of. I'm happy with those purchases.. even if the brew have lost some efficiency.. it was more then worth it for the memory chips alone as that was why I mainly got them....

However I'm likely going to avoid using the brews until some sort of build strategy is made... and even still this makes me reluctant to prepare for a build and stay in my place writing my descriptions there. I have to now work efficiency and watch my hunger in what will likely be the new brew strat. So I'll have to be very organized and prepared.. no more getting all the stam, supplies, brew and sitting in the place for hours writing discriptions, trying to tweak and retweak programs, being able to add in new rooms, pages and doors as I feel I need until I'm out of stam...

I don't mind that I need a new strat, I'm just pointing out where the new limitations are and why I don't necessarily like such a change as much as it pertains to that aspect of the game.

When it comes to building.. it feels ungainly.. waiting for the right items to be in store, gathering the right things, the extra ost cost and gauge watching..

And it really does make the 10 cigs for scrapyard admittance look really steep.

I like the system when it comes to gameplay and jungling it seems fun. It's more realistic and interesting and engaging... but... Basicly I feel torn on my opinion.


 
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Harris
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 07:06 AM UTC  
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Let me start by saying that I am not addressing the issues the new food system creates in building. I am addressing the points of whether or not the new food system is inherently fair and useful, and whether or not we "pay for this game", as Fred put it.

Quote by: Matthew

Nope. You're punished for not eating



How? By the stamina debuff you get by being "weak and malnourished"? If that's what you mean, then you've lost me. That's been around at *least* since the beginning of Season Two (I was not around for One, and wouldn't know). Rephrase, please?

Quote by: Matthew

and the new system makes it impossible for rookies to eat (or eat anything at all meaningful as far as not starving goes) at low levels. Something isn't right.



Not true at all. Just tested this theory by doing nothing but selling my three BANG grenades I got in NewHome as Human council freebies, for two Newdays in a row. I made 601 req. That is not counting any junlge fights, any crates,...only selling the grenades the council office gives Humans (Rookies) for free.

The most expensive thing in Joe's Diner is 650 req.

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

One does not buy anything on this free game.

I donate to the game. For donating to the island, CMJ gives supporter points, which used to be called "donator points" before WCG gave everybody a tiny income. CMJ established a way of redeeming these points, and one of the ways is to spend it on Builder's Brews. The game is free, and the brew is an optional bonus to anyone who supports the developer of the game.


Quote by: Matthew

That's kind of naive.

Of course people donate to redeem the points at the Hunter's Lodge, or at least I'm willing to bet 99% of them do. Selling Supporter Points is pretty much what CMJ's entire business model operates on. Saying making things (things that people have already bought, no less) less effective isn't relevant is pretty much not how anything works, ever.

Sorry.



Not naive at all. CMJ doesn't base his business model on the Hunter's Lodge items, or we'd be playing a Minecraft clone, really. The interesting, fun part isn't the stuff that makes it easier to build- it's what you can build. The interesting, fun part isn't being able to travel everywhere thanks to your enhanced stamina- it's traveling to a new place for the first time, or beating that Mighty Magpie with the laaaaaast bit of stamina you've got (or less!). The interesting, fun part isn't the stuff that makes it easier for you to write- it's being able to be a schiozephrenic cybernetic cat man with no pants on having a chat with a nattily dressed three-pieced suited cat man who wears glasses in a bigass glass fortress.

We don't buy this game- we buy additions to it. CMJ makes a living by making this a fun game to play with or without them, and doing it for whatever we give him, money-wise. If the additions weren't there, would we still donate? Hell yeah. Not everyone, but a lot of folk would. Not because of builder's brews, special comments, colored names, altruism stamina bonuses, but because Improbable Island is a fun thing to play with, and place to be in by itself, and many of us would pay to keep it going, no matter what extras are or aren't offered in exchange for our money.

Fred's right.


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
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Collin-Vee
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 01:35 PM UTC  
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Just to move away from the idea of real-life cost, and back to req costs, let me put this in perspective.
My character has 28 DKs, last time I checked.

I CAN ONLY BUY ONE BIT OF FOOD WHEN MY STAMINA HITS ORANGE.

And forget about upgrading weapons if you want to eat. You starve, or you get stronger!

On an alt character I made recently, I start out with 71.5 stamina after Altruism bonuses. Combined with terrible hunting costs, I can hardly scrape up enough for the cheapest foods.

I don't feel the system should be changed, but the most expensive foods should be at 850 req, tops. It'd be much more viable to be able to eat if the cost was almost halved in them, but you take what you can get.


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 04:00 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Harris

Let me start by saying that I am not addressing the issues the new food system creates in building. I am addressing the points of whether or not the new food system is inherently fair and useful, and whether or not we "pay for this game", as Fred put it.

Quote by: Matthew

Nope. You're punished for not eating



How? By the stamina debuff you get by being "weak and malnourished"? If that's what you mean, then you've lost me. That's been around at *least* since the beginning of Season Two (I was not around for One, and wouldn't know). Rephrase, please?

Quote by: Matthew

and the new system makes it impossible for rookies to eat (or eat anything at all meaningful as far as not starving goes) at low levels. Something isn't right.



Not true at all. Just tested this theory by doing nothing but selling my three BANG grenades I got in NewHome as Human council freebies, for two Newdays in a row. I made 601 req. That is not counting any junlge fights, any crates,...only selling the grenades the council office gives Humans (Rookies) for free.

The most expensive thing in Joe's Diner is 650 req.

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

One does not buy anything on this free game.

I donate to the game. For donating to the island, CMJ gives supporter points, which used to be called "donator points" before WCG gave everybody a tiny income. CMJ established a way of redeeming these points, and one of the ways is to spend it on Builder's Brews. The game is free, and the brew is an optional bonus to anyone who supports the developer of the game.


Quote by: Matthew

That's kind of naive.

Of course people donate to redeem the points at the Hunter's Lodge, or at least I'm willing to bet 99% of them do. Selling Supporter Points is pretty much what CMJ's entire business model operates on. Saying making things (things that people have already bought, no less) less effective isn't relevant is pretty much not how anything works, ever.

Sorry.



Not naive at all. CMJ doesn't base his business model on the Hunter's Lodge items, or we'd be playing a Minecraft clone, really. The interesting, fun part isn't the stuff that makes it easier to build- it's what you can build. The interesting, fun part isn't being able to travel everywhere thanks to your enhanced stamina- it's traveling to a new place for the first time, or beating that Mighty Magpie with the laaaaaast bit of stamina you've got (or less!). The interesting, fun part isn't the stuff that makes it easier for you to write- it's being able to be a schiozephrenic cybernetic cat man with no pants on having a chat with a nattily dressed three-pieced suited cat man who wears glasses in a bigass glass fortress.

We don't buy this game- we buy additions to it. CMJ makes a living by making this a fun game to play with or without them, and doing it for whatever we give him, money-wise. If the additions weren't there, would we still donate? Hell yeah. Not everyone, but a lot of folk would. Not because of builder's brews, special comments, colored names, altruism stamina bonuses, but because Improbable Island is a fun thing to play with, and place to be in by itself, and many of us would pay to keep it going, no matter what extras are or aren't offered in exchange for our money.

Fred's right.



This really is getting off topic really. I did object to how my attempt at constructive criticism for the new system were being dismissed as complaining it's too difficult... even if you take the brews out of the picture it makes building and scrapyarding ungainly and my concerns for it still hold.

Since meat doesn't keep, and the food is at the outposts.. I'd like some solution that can help builders and scrapyarders keep working in their place, I even attempted to offer a solution.. the solution would even be great if it could be accessed in places without having to newday and it would create less pressure on trying to organize things right at the very start of a newday to be sure you get everything done in 4 hours.

Honestly the cost doesn't phase me as much, I tend to wait to do building for when I have over 100k req in the bank and extra osts in terms of building.. it does look like it would be a issue for newer players with the stam debuffs for not eating.. perhaps a bit of tweeking to rations so that they don't make you fat and can stave off the combined debuff stam and malnutrition and maybe have it so eating just one or two a day could get a player with no buff or debuff somehow?


 
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Harris
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 04:27 PM UTC  
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Annnnd Lydia's right too.

I like your suggestions, L! I know nothing about the programming aspect, but they sound solid!

The one thing that I'm still curious about is "Are there ways to mix things in the bigger pans to get higher stamina?". I'm betting there are, but it's only an educated guess.


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
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LydiaDefountain
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 04:54 PM UTC  
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hmmm ah there's the thing.. we need to encourage newbies to get their cooking class done and cook their meals to stave off the debuffs likely.. as this system likely leans more for the idea that we should cook our own meals, and make cooking more useful then going and buying the meals.. likely hence the prices..

It doesn't address the building/scrapyard part but we likely really do need to stop thinking in terms of having to buy the foods for jungleing purposes.


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 05:11 PM UTC  
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Other thoughts/suggestions on how to make the builders/scrapyarders happy..

A pair of special meals, potentially costing a few cigs even one bought from Suzies and is only usable from the build menu, if you have one in your inventory it shows up on the jobs list page only. It is a builders lunchbox and it has comparable stats to the good meals, possibly even a hair better but likely not quite as good as making a good meal made yourself with fresh supplies, but your saving on gathering costs, hence the high cost and it shouldn't be able to be abused the other sold at the gate of the scrapyard and only useable while in the scrapyard and you can chose when to take them, for max efficiency.

Alternatively a meal vender could be added in the scrapyard.. possibly even be cig cost or a exorbitant vender offering decent to good food at twice the price because of location/location/location...


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 05:28 PM UTC  
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Or, for this scrapyard-value thing, hand-stamps. As in, the robots suddenly start giving them out. To engender friendship from the flesh contestants. And to encourage flesh contestants to visit their restaurant.


 
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Harris
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 05:46 PM UTC  
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Possible stupid question, but why is stam balancing for the Scrapyard such a big deal? The Scrapyard Market doesn't help?


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LydiaDefountain
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 05:56 PM UTC  
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Because you bay 10 cigs for entry, and you leave with whatever you grabbed while there and it's 10 cigs to get in again.

With the new, more eat three balanced meals a day seeming system... You can only get.. I think about 250% stam max ish.. from my tests, during just one hunger gauge fill up (I agree with that the hunger gauge depleting to get full feels odd.. conceptually I understand the wording how your taking out your hunger as you eat but.. it feels odd.)

That plus the food items taking up space in your inventory, you are not likely to be able to find near as many contraptions.. and it is my opinion and perhaps the opinion of others that 10 cigs for what you can get at max now with the new system is steep... and it is frustrating while you are in the scrapyard to know that you can still eat more before newday because you're getting hungry again... but you can't eat in the scrapyard and to leave eat more and get back in it costs a new 10 cigs.

If there was a way to make the 10 cigs a entry cost till newday allowing you to leave and go eat and return it would help.. And take out one of the primary concerns really.. I can live with the ungainly building... it's not that nice but I can still effectively build and get max use of my stamina till newday... I would like some solution for the scrapyarding.


 
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Harris
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 05:59 PM UTC  
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That makes sense, Scrapyard-wise, but what about the Scrapyard Market?


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LydiaDefountain
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 06:04 PM UTC  
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You can get to the market whenever, but the most effective way to get scrapyard points is to use the scrapyard.. the market is good for trading the junk for stuff you need... I... don't know how you mean about the market as this.. likely won't affect it much besides possibly making the prices higher over time? Maybe? I haven't used the market much.


 
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Harris
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 06:11 PM UTC  
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Quote by: LydiaDefountain

You can get to the market whenever, but the most effective way to get scrapyard points is to use the scrapyard.. the market is good for trading the junk for stuff you need... I... don't know how you mean about the market as this.. likely won't affect it much besides possibly making the prices higher over time? Maybe? I haven't used the market much.



Well, the problem with the new food system is that it makes scrap scavenging in the Scrapyard difficult, due to raised stamina costs, and cig entry fees. The Scrapyard Market offers scrap at no cig OR stamina cost, but you seem to be saying that the market isn't useful for alleviating these problems, due to lack of ability to pick anything up from it unless you have stuff to trade.

So I'm wondering, are you saying that the market isn't useful, and if so, do I understand your reasoning correctly?


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LydiaDefountain
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 06:20 PM UTC  
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umm... I think I'm saying... that I'm not the best judge on the topic.. as I've only used the market once.. I don't know it.. I know I like programing but I'm still having more then enough for my needs from the boxes.. the market may help...

though thinking on it to think it offers scrap at no cig or stamina cost is wrong.. you need scrap.. scrap costs cigs to get in the first place.. or you can use the market at a 1 cig to 100 scrappoints exchange... and when even scrapier things like race checks go for 1600+ points it is more cost effective to go scrapyard hunting... I've always thought of the market as a way to dump the things you don't need to use to help you get what you do need.

it's useful.. really useful.. but.. I don't see how it would alleviate the stam/food aspects of the scrapyard.. difficulty as you say. Not effectively anyway.


 
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Harris
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 06:51 PM UTC  
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Ahhhh. Gotcha, and another good point!


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Hairy Mary
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 09:41 PM UTC  
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I take it all back! I just had four Unrepentants on the trot and now have over 500% stam. It cost 10,000 req.
This is more difficult, but doable. Even as a builder/RPer with little interest in game playing, I'm happy on all fronts.

Big Grin


 
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Ada
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 09:46 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

I take it all back! I just had four Unrepentants on the trot and now have over 500% stam. It cost 10,000 req.
This is more difficult, but doable. Even as a builder/RPer with little interest in game playing, I'm happy on all fronts.

Big Grin



Doesn't that make you puke? Did you just cross your fingers and hope for the best?


 
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Hairy Mary
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 09:55 PM UTC  
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I crossed my fingers and hoped for the best. It was only a small risk I figured. I didn't eat at all the day before, and went to bed hungryish the day before that, so I had plenty of room.

I still had some room after three, and so went for it. Whether it really was worth the risk, or whether I was just really, really lucky remains to be seen. But 3 Unrepentants is certainly doable with room left over. After some work done, I now have room for energy drinks or rat packs as well. But even without that, the scrap yard is alright as long as you plan for it well.

Note: This doesn't necessarily mean that a Hunter's Lodge item to make you more effective in your scrap hunting is a bad idea.


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 11:35 PM UTC  
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Oh the unrepentant can do all that.. Alright then this new system seems great.. just remember to point newbies to grab themselves a frying pan and learn cooking.. I think it's the only way they can survive... and I don't think that is a bad thing.


 
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