Cherri: Not what I meant. There have actually been several technical complaints on the matter of chat programs, and I was firing back at those. Not at you, or anyone who has trouble multitasking. Only at complaints of "programs X and Y are too diffcult to use compared to the ease of Banter" I stand by my statements about those complaints.

Fred: Mayhap I am, and you are right. I hope so, and will continue reading to find out. I rather like being proven wrong, especially at times like this!

P.S.- Youse runs ya joint wid class, Bud. Anyone tells ya oddawise ain't fit ta fill 'is own shoes.

Gen and Agelmar: I'd stage a coup to install the two of you as King and Queen of the Island, but I'm not sure who I'd need to overthrow to do that.
Dan and Crazy Audrey, maybe?

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"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead

Haha, no. I'd be the silliest queen.

I can't do drag, either.

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They all think I'm crazy, but I know better. It is not I who are crazy. It is I who am MAD!

Thought I was already Queen?


**Dons Humble Hat and sits in the corner**

Yes, it was definitely better in the beginning, but unfortunetly less and less people joined in later on. I'm sorry you couldn't find RP-partners there. Hopefully it will be better positioned should the old chat return.



Exactly what Fred said!
Of course I found friends through the island and chat with them elsewhere, but to find them I actually talked to them on the island first, you know?
I've had enough distraction conversations to be aware of its limitations.
And just because someone is fun in-game doesn't mean I want to tell them my life story immediately or be available to them whenever I log on to my messaging programs.
There are really great people in this game, but in order to also maintain a normal life without being buried in conversations, however interesting they are, there have to be limitations to it. Like in real life you are not close friends with every one of your acquaintances or work colleagues. Some will become friends and some, frankly, just won't.

Something I would definitely miss is that the former system allowed conversations on the same platform we are playing at and between more than two people, and, while not being private, at least with less interference and noisy backround.

I can understand why many of you like the new banter and not everything is bad about it. It's a good experiment.
For myself it seems the percieved positives still can become negatives and vice versa. By the end of the week the new banter certainly will have changed. Into what remains to be seen and I will give it a try again, no doubt about that.


And all of you, please, remind to acknowledge other people's complaints and thoughts about new systems, no matter how much you differ. It's their valid opinions. You can't argue them away or declare them insignificant or silly compared to your own view of things.
They came here to voice their thoughts, and if they are the same as others have posted before them, then so be it. It's their right to voice them. Don't make them regret doing so. Don't make them feel stupid because they don't exactly agree with the posting elite.

Agree to disagree.

It's a delight to try and understand other points of view. It enriches the island immensly. Just don't forget it.

Hauling this out to highlight it, and heartily agree with it.

And to remark that on the Enquirer, there is no elite. A big "Posts:" number? It only indicates someone who has been very wordy about their opinions!



Except for me. Obviously my opinions count for mor- oh, wait. No, they don't!

Exactly.

Let's say I'm rping with person A, B, and C in an outpost, and person A did something particularly funny, or confusing.

With local Banter, I could say

Jenkins says "Ha."
Person A says "Thankyou, I thought that was quite a good pun."

or

Jenkins says "Wait, what's in the box?"
Person A says "Oh, it's a (Insert object here)"

But if I said that in Global, I'd be lucky if they even saw the post.

If they chose to hold Banter open, which, as far as I know, alot of people are currently choosing not to, including me.

If they did manage to see it in the 50 seconds - 3 mins of Banter one there (That's about the average right? I saw it at 6 mins, when very few people were on today, but that's as slow as I've seen it) then everyone else is confused in the midst of their cuddles/inane chat/glomps/whatever, by the fact that what I'm saying makes absolutely no sense to them.

I like the idea of being able to throw a party and inviting the entire island to it, but geeze, do we really need to destroy a type of Banter that quite a few people enjoyed?

And on those who say that it's calming down, I'm pretty sure that's because everyone's closing Banter completely.
When chat gets down to about 5 mins before disapearing, I usually jet to another area of the island, I just don't like crowded areas. It's quick, and can be fun, but it's just too much of a bother, I can't read everybody's post so I only read one person's anyways. Now, you've made it so I can't escape that clutter, other than by closing Banter. Which isn't that horribly awful, but when people have to close out something they used to and enjoy, that's just probably a bad idea. And it might change, through more and more people ignoring Banter until it evens out. And once it's evened out, you've taken away what many contestants enjoy in the island. That's just bad.

I truly, truly hope this remains an expirement, and it's over within a week.

I loved what you had to say, and would've gladly shook on it, until here. This...sucked. Why?

"it's their valid opinions. You can't argue them away..."

So, it's okay to disagree if we're discussing things that are agreed upon as fact, but no-one may speak if they disagree with an opinion?

NO. That is not okay.

Two people are going to have different opinions. Even if they are very, very similar, there will still be small differences. Other times, there will be vastly different opinions. You are right, different opinions, like different definitions of facts (just have a look at a definition in the dictionary, if you're not sure what I mean. Any definition.) exist, and will continue to, and we should keep that in mind. That's quite true, and I do not argue there.

The rest is where I have to stop you.

Where has anyone declared someone's opinion "insignificant or silly" happened? I know I called arguments made that the technical process of using another chat program, and even opening a new desktop window stupid, but then I backed it up with relevant portions of the processes of using chat programs, and opening new windows to support that point.

You've made a bold claim there that calls people derisive that you do not back up at all. Since you seem to want peace very badly here, I have to call you out on this, because THAT does not bring peace. Folk are left to guess, not analyze, and with polarizing claims like 'people are being hurt here', that causes division, not togetherness.



"...it's their valid opinions. You can't argue them away..."

So, we can't learn from each other? We cannot exchange ideas if we have a dissenting opinion? I hope this is not what you mean, as this would be just as arrogant and dismissive as you are making accusations of other people being, but you go on to reinforce this very strongly.

"Don't make them feel stupid because they don't exactly agree with the posting elite."

The "posting elite". Well. One, you do not back that opinion up either, so I can only guess as to who you mean, because you leave literally no definition of who you mean. Two, taken in conjunction with the "You can't argue them away..." point, you are pointing to a specific group as not being allowed to discuss things if they disagree.

And please, before you disagree on that, remember that the ONLY way for two or more parties to discuss differing opinions is to debate them. To argue them.

Finally, "agree to disagree". This is useful, but only once debates have stalled completely, with no side managing to convince either of anything. It's not a thing that should be thrown in simply because the debate has become difficult- unless the debate isn't really wanted anyway.

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"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead

Also, Sonny and Jenkins: neither of you mention the expanded Places chat being rolled out. Do you not like that at all, or...?

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"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead

Erm... Harris? I didn't read Sonny's post as a criticism of anyone.

Paraphrased: If you don't agree with someone's opinion, it's fine to disagree with them and state your own view, just try to do it in a way that acknowledges and respects them.

That's called being courteous.

I saw courtesy AND wisdom until the end there (as I quoted), but I will try to rephrase my points for you and anyone else who might not see it, and as well hopefully also come up with clearer citations from what he said... as soon as I can figure out how. I'm drawing a blank right now.

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"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead

If I push, and you* disagree, push back. Your debate opponent is not the arbitrator of your debate. The only people who won't let you express your opinion is a moderator, and that's only if the message is deemed to cause more harm to the overall environment than what the message would meaningfully contribute to the debate.

When I disagree with you, don't get hurt when I tell you, "Of course this is a bad idea. It's obviously better to be that." Just parry and riposte. "No, it's not that simple and obvious. You've forgotten this and that." It's not an uncivil street fight where the defeated is killed, it's an organized sparring match for the benefit of the competitors and the audience.

I'm getting tired of each recent thread veering off into, "Why do you think it's fair that I can't express my dissent?" You can express your dissent, no matter what your opponent says. Get back on course and keep discussing.

*This is the general "you" and is not addressed to anyone.

Yes, but what would be even better would be a friendly debate would it not? It would for me anyway.

In a debate, I'm more interested in taking on board your thoughts and considering them, and perhaps even gaining something from then. In a fight, even an organised sparring match, I'm more interested in jabbing and avoiding being jabbed.

When you feel as if somebody's trying to push you into a position (whether or not they are trying to push you into a position) then you can either go where you're pushed, or fight back and go in the opposite direction. It's incredibly hard to find the place to stand that suits you best unless you already knew where it was and are going to stick to it like a limpet.

Take this post as a case in point. I could have picked up on the "I'm getting tired of each recent thread..." part and said "Well Awesome, if you're getting tired then please feel free to fuck off elsewhere." But I didn't, at least in part because I didn't think that that's the best way to get the most interesting comments from you or anybody else.

Harris, Awesome Fred, Hairy Mary, thank you all for the lessons on Advanced Debating, I'll certainly keep those insight in mind with the coming elections. Now, let's go back to Debating 101; staying on topic.


This banter is what I originally hoped for when Global Banter got rolled out. I'm not opposed to a different chatspace with more people than just the same familiar faces you see every day in Global/Kittania/NewHome. But I do oppose removing the Local Banters, simply because they gave Outposts their own feeling. The Kittania-banter was different from the NewHome banter, and that is something I do miss. You had a choice of different places to go to depending on your mood. If you wanted a more quiet place or didn't like the topic at hand, you could move.

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http://maniak.cu.cc/

Bless your heart, Maniak.

I think everyone's been fairly civil in this thread, as compared to the discussions that happened in actual Banter, but the thing that bothered me most about your post, Sonny, was that you mentioned a "posting elite", and to be honest, that made me sort of sad. I hate to think that there is any kind of elite, either on the Enquirer or on the Island itself, that divides people by making them think that there is some elite (which does not include them) that does things a Certain Way and looks down their long, aristocratic noses on anyone who does things Another Way.

No one tries to do this! Like Sessine said, people with a bigger post count are just more talkative. Not a mark of honor by any means. If you're going off of post count, all the "posting elite" are disagreeing with each other, anyways.

In short, don't be too sensitive if someone attacks your position, because that's what debate is; on the other hand, be courteous no matter what your position is. There we go. Back on point.

Is there a new Places version of Banter being rolled out? Or did you mean "it's in the works" and not "a version is actually available for you to enable in your Dwelling"? I tried to find it and couldn't, so. I'm watching Banter now (earliest post is 7 minutes ago, not bad, and there also hasn't been a post for 3 minutes) and someone's mentioned that NewHome seems quiet, mostly rookies, and that people are migrating to Places to talk.

In the slower hours, I rather like it. Sometimes it's nice to be able to see Banter from inside my Place, and it's equally as nice to be able to hide it when I don't want to see it. Yesterday, at a busier time, about 2 minutes a page, I asked if anyone wanted to do a scene, and a few people responded. So in that sense, it works.

Maniak, I think the Story of each Outpost is supposed to give each outpost their own feeling. Was there ever much Banter chatter going on in CC404? AceHigh? And from what I remember, Kittania and NewHome often sounded fairly similar to me. Putting Local Banter back will empty out Global. I don't think they'll coexist very well.

Just chiming in to give the example that the local Banter of 404 used to contain commentary of outpost-defender exploits. (Not specifically OST folk, just anyone in general who fought in the jungle and built on the walls.) Just the usual "I was here" stuff, although some people also do that in Story. It may not have been "much," but what little there was still felt significant.

Maybe not what Maniak meant, but just my two cents.

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Something something unintelligible gibberish something.

I think there's some positive to this too, though - the problem before was that only Kitt and NH banters moved at a reasonable clip. So people who wanted to chat had to go there, so those banters got faster and the others got slower, so people who wanted to chat had to go there, so those banters... etc. With all banters the same, my hope is that people won't feel they need to hang around NewHome all the time just to get some conversation, which (hopefully!) will encourage people to give the noobs in noobhome some more space, and also allow people who like to chat as they level to go explore more - like up to Cyb, for example. It will also mean that, if you're a hapless newbie and end up on the Failboat at the beginning of the day when no one is there, you'll still be able to talk to people for game tips and so on.

So, some good and some bad, I think. Right now I think the negatives are more pronounced, but give it some time for people to change their habits a bit and we might find that the positives start to outweigh them.

Ummm, I've just spent the last half hour reading through all of the posts above, and well... Throughout most of the above I've seen two main sides, and the simplest forms of the arguments are

"I think Banter should be for constructive uses towards story." and "I think Banter should be for what ever I want it to be."

Yet, each one I seem to not see something taken into account, Banter itself, the word, Which by definition means

"The playful and friendly exchange of teasing remarks."

Now if we go for the serious side of banter should be a story aid, then Banter itself is a misnomer, and I can see why allot of people treat it this way, it's name has it's roots in silliness and fun, though on the other side of the argument, there is going too far and being too silly.

Now for my opinion
Personally, I like to head into banter when I log on, I will quite often hug, snuggle and even hugtackle people, I do this because I feel it is an adequate display of my affection and friendship towards the people I have spent the last two and a half years getting to know, now this is no different to how I treat my friends in Real life, I am often known as being a fool, to do silly and often stupid things and to be generally a ball of hug based energy. Though thankfully I have begun to mature of late and tone down some of my idiocy, I'd honestly feel as if I lost something if I weren't allowed to grab one of my friends in banter, pull them onto the metaphysical object that is the couch of banter, and snuggle up to them.

Yes, quite often of late I have neglected story, though often this is not entirely my own fault, I have problems with shyness and allot of my craziness is to help me get past that, and I've been doing it for so long that it's second nature. Though I do have my limits, yes a good number of you will say "But you're usually in those very silly and stupid rolling balls of hugs in banter." I indeed am, and though I make the initial hug, it is often (90% of the time if I had to guess) someone else who escalates it to that, not me. There are also times that I feel just too... Awkward to even touch story, and there are people who intimidate, annoy or something me enough that I'll stay away, only a couple of months ago I mostly got over the feelings of intimidation I get to the veteran players of the island, and by veteran I mean those who had been played II for about as long as I have when I started to play, the only one I wasn't really scared of is Carter. Quite often if somone like Eben or Praco or more was in story I'd stay away from it, I was even scared of Bob in banter until I forced myself to pounce that ridiculously long and fluffy tail of his.

But enough of what I think should be banter for... to sum this all up for those who don't want to read a load of text. If you want banter to be sensible, change the name to something else, because the root word is not sensible, and if it's kept there will always be silliness.

This post makes me ashamed of myself, because I can see myself in it. And I'll tell you why- first by admitting that "hugsnuggle" Banter or Story has caused me to roll my eyes before. And swear mildly. And when the new Banter experiment started, I too complained about how "Oh no, now it's a global 'Kittania Banter!' Horror!"

But back in the day, I was a hugsnuggler. I beat people around the face with churros, made my kittymorph character melt all over people and was extremely silly in general. I wrote entire scenes in Banter that could have been written in Story, but I didn't want them to be "real" scenes, as it were, so Banter it was.

During this time of insanity, I noticed people who wrote good stories in Outposts. Stories I quite liked to read. So when inevitably I ambled my absentminded, crazy flop-snuggle character into their scenes and stuck myself in their faces like an idiot in the hope of playing along, there was a sort of collective sigh.
And then the distracts began.

I helpfully got "corrected" on my RP etiquette, sure, but also on my writing style, discouraged from my friendship with another character who was considered "bad", my storylines and pretty much my everything. I was told I was a "good rookie", an interesting term.

While part of me appreciates the help, thinking back, I remember this as the time when I slowly became aware that there was a subculture of players on the Island who regarded rookies as something of a global village idiot population, and people who didn't graduate from their rookiness to ascend to the prescribed levels of "goodness" were a lost cause. They were the "drama llamas", the "NewHomeites", the "Kittaniaites", the perpetual 'morphs.

All of which I had quite happily been up to that point.

I became horribly selfconcious about my writing. I decided, rather than be considered a maladjusted, awkward and generally pitiable player, that I would try to emulate as closely as possible the people I had admired, all the while harboring a manic desire for approval. I became a scorner of my own writing. I called it horrible and laughed with others about how bad I had been. I jeered at characters I had once played with and completely, totally, one hundred percent became the very thing that had made me so miserable, which is a Veteran Player with Standards.

I know other players have had a similar experience. And don't think the stage fright goes away, either. I could name a dozen people, not including myself, who I've seen time and again pick apart their own writing and disparage themselves until all that remains is a lump of headachy, self-critical lurker who won't write in public. When you care more about what other people think than you do about enjoying a scene, something is wrong.

Perhaps the worst part is that none of the people who made me feel so horrible about myself ever intended to. Most of them are now friends, all of them kind and honestly wanting to help. And I am not contradicting the fact there are sometimes players who don't follow the Rule, aka Don't be a Dick, and need correction. That's still true.

But I find myself now struck by the utter hypocrisy of my own Banter-related complaints.

Here I am bitching about people who are purring and laughing and snuggling in Outposts and Banter, and being ridiculous, and I used to write exactly the same way. And I never had so much fun in my life. The friendships I made back then were lasting and transcended the Island to become Real Life, something that never happened with the other sites I've frequented throughout the years. I hugely enjoyed the sense of community that first presented itself to me when I was new. Now I can see battle lines drawn in the sand.

I guess the point I'm trying to make at length is that for every character we want to rip out our hair over in Banter who's nomming or hugging and or doing things unrelated to Story, there is a real, live human being with feelings who's writing them. They are probably very much aware of you if you're a "Verteran" player. They probably know you find them irritating.

All any player on the Island wants to do is have fun with their friends, usually in an Outpost or Banter, which mind you are supposed to be public forums. They like the game the way they play it. In Banter or out, they'll keep writing they way they are comfortable with no matter how many people raise a cry about how you can't have a Jaguar-morph ninja cyborg character with four personalities tacklehugging someone on a virtual couch. People have a right to their own characters.

And for myself, I'm going to unmute Banter.



(Okay, I know this is a rant of epic proportions, somewhat off-topic, probably sketchy in places and badly worded, but it's almost six in the morning now and when it's six in the morning I can't bring myself to care about anything but sleep. So apologies in advance. )

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.

That post warmed my heart enough to change my Smug Cat avatar back to my Happy Kitty avatar.

You know what? This Global Banter stuff is okay.

Waverly,

I find your post incredibly honest and cathartic and I makes me realize some similar elements of my past, though not from the island. I'm glad you wrote it. I probably don't RP because I don't enjoy the attitudes of either Veterans With Standards nor the HuggleGlomps crowds, both with which I've associated elsewhere during my adolescent groups.

I think, after considering all those details, the main justifiable complaint by the Veterans With Standards group is that the change to Global Banter means they cannot ignore the population that tears their hair out, whereas with isolated Banters, they could much easier get along with them. I think Global Banter necessitates two opposing sides to conflict with each other everywhere they go, whereas the previous system meant that these two rival forces could be safely separated.