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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Monday, September 17 2012 @ 05:48 AM UTC  


Agree to disagree then, my good sir. Mr. Green I'll continue reassuring people in a way that is comfortable to me. I prefer to be thought pointless than to be thought an asshole.


 
Harris
 Monday, September 17 2012 @ 05:57 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Escemfer

Agree to disagree then, my good sir. Mr. Green I'll continue reassuring people in a way that is comfortable to me. I prefer to be thought pointless than to be thought an asshole.



Just be vigilant against using methods that you're succeeding in spite of, not because of, okay? You're good people, hence my wish to understand you.

It always much more pleasant to understand good folk.


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
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TeddybearofDeath
 Monday, September 17 2012 @ 12:44 PM UTC  
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Aha.. hahah.. ha... I might cry. I came too late! If I had time between work shifts to come Enquierer before my burn happened, I might have been able to raise this new support against Global before CMJ already reached the 'keep' verdict.

It seems like in the same way I feel, most of the dissenters gave up trying to voice their opinion because it's so hard to move against a vocal crowd around here... Like so:

Quote by: jenkins

Now, I have no idea how many people used Banter regularly before the change, but I'm pretty damn sure it was more than 10%. There's probably more people using Banter, now the Places Banter has been installed, but that's out of sheer desire not to use Global. I've heard many people complain about Global in Global, but few of those who do have made posts in this thread, mostly because...

Ya see, that's the problem with people who're uncomfortable blabbing in front of hoards they don't know or who certainly don't agree with them. They don't have the balls to run up to your face and disagree!



Quote by: Sonny


While I won't deny that some people changed their minds, I would like to point out that it's equally easy to assume many also simply stopped complaining for whatever reasons, or are even too polite or shy to voice their dissent in the first palce.

...How many are part of the very vocal and favoured handful, that automatically gets more attention because they repeat their opinions often enough? ...



...But when I came and decided to outline the cause of my leaving before leaving, it seems like they had renewed hope.

'Someone else disagrees and is making points against it?! Then hear me out, hear me out too!'

Anyway...

Quote by: Buddleia

Response to Teddy



When you put it like that, I actually agree on all points...

Quote by: jenkins

Don't feel bad, alot of people don't use Global. And I mean ALOT.

On average, there's about 40-90 people on at any given time, right?* But h0w many people are using Banter at any given time? Like, 3-6 people. Once you start hitting 7 or 8 people, you've got posts disapearing in less than 2 minutes, so people stop using it, and it'll go back down. But that's 3-6, out of the 40-90 people all on the island. That's about 5-10% of the island that's willing to go onto Global.

...Leaving them to decide to leave, or give up Banter completely. Which I just don't think is right. It's CMJ's decision, but damn if I don't want to influence him to change his mind.



*Well, maybe like 25 if the island's really empty, but on average and all that



I haven't been in banter for days, but I believe it. We'd have to ask some of those people who're uncomfortable to speak up here if we wanted to prove it... And that's a hard task. : (

If this is true though, it makes me think this question is in order: Are you actually 'improving' a system if the 'improvement' just drives everyone but those who agree with you away from a feature they used to like and use?

Quote by: Sonny


Without a vote and hard numbers it's not right to declare that the majority of the oppinions turned around. While it could seem to some that the majority did so in the forum, one has to ask how many of all the active player are posting here, and how many of those then really changed their mind?

How many are part of the very vocal and favoured handful, that automatically gets more attention because they repeat their opinions often enough? Or did someone go and count all personal stances here, in banter, distracions and other programms since the experiment started? Not as far as I know. So in my oppinion it stays a totally unsupported assumption.

Therefor the only fair way would be a vote in-game, in a module that can't be skipped accidentally, as banter-votes never striked me as very representative.
Otherwise pretending the opinion of the community is important to the final decision sounds like a lie to me.

I still wish this decision wasn't so final. Good points were made on both sides, but there are still valid complaints. I myself am with the ones prefering another solution, mostly because I still don't like the new, crowded party-banter and agree with all that was said by others above against it.

Are local banters really gone forever, CMJ?



Again, agreed on all points. Everyone who doesn't like it has either assumed they will be disregarded like I thought I would be and decided to bite the bullet, or they've left. Those people's feelings don't get considered at all, just casualties.

Quote by: Waverly

The thought does occur to me, though, that if people can use alts to vote that will skew the results by possibly a large margin. That would have to be fixed first.



If mods and Admin are able to distinguish alts with no trouble - and trust me, THEY CAN, I have no doubt a system could be worked out for a proper vote. The question is; would CMJ care enough about our opinions to go through the trouble, especially after he's already come to the conclusion he likes it and is keeping it? I feel a 'no' coming on.

Slightly unrelated notes:

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Iriana

Can we have a "Split" link straight from the single-column view, instead of having to click "Stack" then "Split" to go back from single to double?


I was just thinking this, too!

Please? Smile



Thirded, because this irritated me too.

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

I am somewhat asocial (as opposed to antisocial), and perhaps there's a a little of the loner in me. Also it's long been my firm belief that we're all a little bit insane and I suppose that counts as weirdo.



Nooo! Don't be asocial Mary! You're so much fun to be around when I get in touch with you! I hope you share your awesome more often! : D (A little part of me actually does get excited when I get involved with Enquierer stuff, wondering if Mary's gonna reply. Agree or disagree, I always find her points interesting and look forward to seeing her. True story.)


"It's hard to get pumped about this, without someone nice n' fuzzy around."
 
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Hairy Mary
 Monday, September 17 2012 @ 07:33 PM UTC  
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Quote by: TeddybearofDeath

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

I am somewhat asocial (as opposed to antisocial), and perhaps there's a a little of the loner in me. Also it's long been my firm belief that we're all a little bit insane and I suppose that counts as weirdo.



Nooo! Don't be asocial Mary! You're so much fun to be around when I get in touch with you! I hope you share your awesome more often! : D (A little part of me actually does get excited when I get involved with Enquierer stuff, wondering if Mary's gonna reply. Agree or disagree, I always find her points interesting and look forward to seeing her. True story.)



Why thank you. I'll try.

Quote by: TeddybearofDeath

Everyone who doesn't like it has either assumed they will be disregarded like I thought I would be and decided to bite the bullet, or they've left. Those people's feelings don't get considered at all, just casualties.



I think that you're being a wee bit harsh here, feelings get considered. But you can't please everybody. While I'm at it, I think that you're being a tad hard on CMJ. The man couldn't possibly reply individually to each post. If he tried then he'd have no time left over for actually writing the game the way he is.

Quote by: TeddybearofDeath

It seems like in the same way I feel, most of the dissenters gave up trying to voice their opinion because it's so hard to move against a vocal crowd around here...



Actually, in my case it was because I'd said my piece and I didn't have anything else to add. Hence I didn't add anything. I don't see this as some sort of combat at all, and I've got no idea why there seems to be so much aggressive sounding argument from so many people. Personally I'm much more interested in finding out how this effects the Island, for better and worse, there's almost always a bit of both with any change. So I read/listen to everybody.

Now I read that this is a big loss to you. Big enough that you're thinking of leaving. That would be a shame, but it is of course entirely up to you.

But I'm intrigued, I'm not entirely sure why it is that Places don't supply what you need. In fact better than banter in less frequented outposts, since that's still open to the whole Island, whereas with Places Banter you can lock out anybody you don't want. Do you have your own Place? You could build one. They're quite fun, I think anyway.

This brings me on to my opinion on the Great Harris and Escemfer Opinion divide on Opinion stating. In my opinion, if stating that "this is just my opinion" helps calm down people's opinion of the nature of the debate, in your opinion, then it's probably worth stating that it's just your opinion, in my opinion. On the other hand, I can see that Harris' opinion, that stating that "this is just my opinion" is ill placed, since, in his opinion it is obvious that this is your opinion, since who else's opinion is it going to be? also has merit. However it's also my opinion that some people could do with remembering that their opinion is just their opinion instead of getting angry sounding at other people opining their opinion, which has an injurious effect on the solicitation of other opinions from the less opinionated, in my opinion, and hence, also in my opinion, gives me less opinions to take in, to learn from, and to base my own onion on. I mean opinion on.

But that's just my opinion. Or is it???

Also, this thread has already started drifting into a debate on debate once. Perhaps anything more like that should be in a separate thread.


 
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Trowa
 Monday, September 17 2012 @ 08:39 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

(...) and to base my own onion on. I mean opinion on.


You're one of those folks that used to wear an onion on your belt, too, because it was the style at the time, ain'tchya? Wink
/derail


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Hairy Mary
 Monday, September 17 2012 @ 09:41 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

(...) and to base my own onion on. I mean opinion on.


You're one of those folks that used to wear an onion on your belt, too, because it was the style at the time, ain'tchya? Wink
/derail



Curses! My secret is out!


 
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TeddybearofDeath
 Tuesday, September 18 2012 @ 01:25 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

I think that you're being a wee bit harsh here, feelings get considered. But you can't please everybody. While I'm at it, I think that you're being a tad hard on CMJ. The man couldn't possibly reply individually to each post. If he tried then he'd have no time left over for actually writing the game the way he is.



Feelings don't get considered. This is not a jab at CMJ because I'm well aware that ANYTIME you change ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, someone's going to react poorly and hiss at the daylight like an old school vampire. You can't let every whine sway you. I'm not completely self-centered, I get that. I've tried to keep that in mind for the last 10-20 changes that came through and shook me up. Some of which I equaly hate but learned to ignore because the site as a whole was still worth it.

On the other hand, on a change as big and ugly as this, alienating and ruining the experience of users, it kills me that we don't get taken into consideration. I can't say for sure what CMJ has taken into account, but without him specifying otherwise, I can only imagine his checklist is, 'Did it break anything? Nope, check. Is it causing any game-breaking, unplayable problems? Any other technical difficulties? Nope, check.' So regardless of whether it forces people exclusively into places like Budd's 'Weirdo Loners' who can't show their face in public for fear of being overwhelmed, the change goes through. I admit, I already often stayed in places for privacy, but there's problems with that.

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

But I'm intrigued, I'm not entirely sure why it is that Places don't supply what you need. In fact better than banter in less frequented outposts, since that's still open to the whole Island, whereas with Places Banter you can lock out anybody you don't want. Do you have your own Place? You could build one. They're quite fun, I think anyway.



My friend's favorite places I like to spend my time in, in several cases have at least some global banter areas. That scares me off, I can't move around and talk without feeling like they're there. And some places keep it entirely! That aside, sometimes I DID venture into public, and into outposts where people I had discomfort with were not present. Now there's no where to go except scurry back under your place bed. I feel like I'm being forced into agoraphobia, elsewise I have to move out of town. So I decided to move out of town, offsite. It's better than living unhappy when there's other options. ..Well, both are unhappy, but one feels like I have more freedom.

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

Actually, in my case it was because I'd said my piece and I didn't have anything else to add. Hence I didn't add anything. I don't see this as some sort of combat at all, and I've got no idea why there seems to be so much aggressive sounding argument from so many people. Personally I'm much more interested in finding out how this effects the Island, for better and worse, there's almost always a bit of both with any change. So I read/listen to everybody.

Now I read that this is a big loss to you. Big enough that you're thinking of leaving. That would be a shame, but it is of course entirely up to you.



It's a huge loss to me, I feel like crying. The fact that this thread itself is dying feels like watching your last candle of hope run down and burn out. I sure as hell don't mean to sound aggressive. As noted repeatedly, I'm frustrated because this hurts me on a deep level, but I'm not trying to attack anyone. I'm just trying to speak up for myself and those who feel like me. Conform or die is not a way I want to live, but I've discovered that's how this site operates in my past year and a half of playing. I've never lived any part of my life as an acquiescing conformer just to continue getting small rewards and some perception of 'stability'. This isn't stable, it isn't happy, and it isn't fun being chased out of my comfort zone for again, reasons I do not understand. Just a sudden upheaval. Why this banter? I doubt I'll ever know.

But it makes me sad, because this is where my friends are, and this has been my only creative outlet and stimulus I've had in years. I've never been on a site like this before, and I don't expect to find another quite as good. It's like making the decision to leave paradise, because it's slowly sickening you, more and more. I'll probably stop drawing again, stop writing, stop having friends. But it's still better than trying to come on here every night and feeling sick and uncomfortable and hindered by this stupid new banter. I can't force myself to like it at the cost of my own health, and stress tears up my stomach and makes it hard to work and support myself. Kind of important.

I'm rambling now, I'll shut up. Thanks to everyone for listening and replying though. I feel good that I was at least heard and able to outline why I, and probably some other folk, are leaving something we once loved and wanted to be a part of the future of. I'll miss you all, and I'm glad for the time I had here to be happy. It never lasts long, but for a while, I had something to look forward to each day. I'm going to miss that, desprately.


"It's hard to get pumped about this, without someone nice n' fuzzy around."
 
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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, September 18 2012 @ 10:08 PM UTC  
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This thread has become unproductive. Closing.


 
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