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Collin-Vee
 Sunday, October 07 2012 @ 10:15 PM UTC (Read 10669 times)  
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Well, a few days ago, I spent a few hours going through every page from A-G, figuring out which stories/features didn't relate to the current Season, and which Contestants were no longer around, and I have to say only one thing about the wiki.

HNNNNNNGH.

It's probably one of the least-organized and difficult to use wikis I've seen in my life. It's taking every fiber of my being to leave people's creative pages alone and NOT fix them to be easier to move around in. Many pages have been half-written and abandoned, some have several inside jokes that would throw even ME off if I hadn't crawled the whole thing and asked around a bout them.

I'm not saying the Wiki's bad, but it needs an overhaul. Categorization, organization, page format, they all need to be fixed for the Wiki to be a resource as opposed to this giant confusing thing that people sometimes stick user bios on. We don't need to change content (though many pages SHOULD be deleted for various reasons), but a structure of some kind, so that users new and old can USE the damn thing, and enjoy doing so, as opposed to using a few pages here and there because they're useful, and ignoring the rest.

I'm not 100% sure where I'm going with this thread, but it needs to be brought to attention, and something needs to be done.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Sunday, October 07 2012 @ 11:18 PM UTC  
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I'm glad you made this thread because in the last one I declared that no one should work together, so, for the sake of my pride, I can't. Speaking of the old thread, though, are you proposing the shuffling of namespaces? And, while we're at it, what's so bad about the wiki in the first place? (And I'm not saying I like Chaos and Lies in a roundabout way, I really want to know how it could be better.)

P.S. How many wiki pages are there, anyway?

P.S.S. As long as we're talking about the Wiki, maybe CMJ will see this list of semi-necessary features:

  • Get rid of Gerald's Delicate Sensibilities (My name for why you can't make a page called "The Watcher's Tits")
  • Opaque footnote backgrounds.


 
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Ebenezer
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 01:21 AM UTC  
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So, what needs to be done and who's gunna do it? Big Grin


 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 01:38 AM UTC  


Actually, Collin-Vee, there are several links on the Wiki of Lies' main page to lists of pertinent or important information. These lists could easily be altered by any industrious player without having to alter or delete either namespaces or other people's pages. Mr. Green If you think that the information is hard to find, why don't you correct some of those link pages?

Someone who wants a good, inclusive index of the wiki for ease of browsing should look on the main page as a starting point. For the most part, it seems like our wiki is used for very specific things, like a tutorial here, a character biography there, 20 in-jokes sprinkled around... rather than a comprehensive and impartial index like wikis on other sites might be. And hey, if that's the way most players want to use it... well, I don't see the problem. Like I said, there are easy-to-browse lists and indexes on the wiki in easy-to-find places, and if those pages are out of date, there's no reason why you couldn't run in and fix it.

EDIT: from my 30 seconds of research, it seems like the only organization besides player-maintained lists would be namespaces, which appears to involve changing the title of each page? Which would, actually, make every single link to that page elsewhere on the wiki invalid. If I'm wrong, and there is another, easier, cleaner way to reorganize, do correct me! I probably wouldn't be able to keep myself from meticulously filing everything like some kind of Ebenezer.


 
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Collin-Vee
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 02:52 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

are you proposing the shuffling of namespaces?



Somewhat. I meant more comprehensive managing of pages, which I'll go into further soon.

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

And, while we're at it, what's so bad about the wiki in the first place? (And I'm not saying I like Chaos and Lies in a roundabout way, I really want to know how it could be better.)



Difficulty to navigate! Some people's pages never get seen, because it's so splintered in different directions that nobody needs to, or even wants to look up random pages. Bio pages COULD do with more linear managing, but that's just to please the eye rather than accomplish anything. And as I've said before, some irrelevant and frankly confusing pages need to be edited or outright deleted!

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

P.S. How many wiki pages are there, anyway?



1593, if my count is correct.

Quote by: Ebenezer

So, what needs to be done and who's gunna do it? Big Grin



So far,

-- More comprehensive managing of pages as opposed to just sticking them in lists,
-- Maybe a 'page quality' system to not only help users find the best pages, but show editors where they can help improve the wiki,
-- Deletion or editing of some irrelevant, unfunny, or unhelpful pages
-- Better list-making (Alphebetical sorting only works if there's little to sort!)


And about doing it? I'm more than happy to help, but I'm only one man.

Quote by: Escemfer

Actually, Collin-Vee, there are several links on the Wiki of Lies' main page to lists of pertinent or important information. These lists could easily be altered by any industrious player without having to alter or delete either namespaces or other people's pages. Mr. Green If you think that the information is hard to find, why don't you correct some of those link pages?



It's a bit too much to do on my own, with over 1500 pages to go over...

Quote by: Escemfer

Someone who wants a good, inclusive index of the wiki for ease of browsing should look on the main page as a starting point.



That would leave out many quality pages, and many pages to references from older Seasons which still retain their giggle-quality.

Quote by: Escemfer

For the most part, it seems like our wiki is used for very specific things, like a tutorial here, a character biography there, 20 in-jokes sprinkled around... rather than a comprehensive and impartial index like wikis on other sites might be.



Exactly. I'm not saying to change any of this, either! It just needs to be sorted better, so that the in-jokes aren't buried under bios which don't always make it to the character list.

Quote by: Escemfer

And hey, if that's the way most players want to use it... well, I don't see the problem. Like I said, there are easy-to-browse lists and indexes on the wiki in easy-to-find places, and if those pages are out of date, there's no reason why you couldn't run in and fix it.



I want to do this, Esc! But I'm only one man, and there's a LOT of wiki to cover.

Quote by: Escemfer

it seems like the only organization besides player-maintained lists would be namespaces, which appears to involve changing the title of each page?



Not in the slightest! You just need MORE, shorter lists. Such as the "Contestants list" link leading to a page which features a few more links of categories, such as it going like:

--Active Characters--
[Links to each letter, which then feature all of the characters which pages start with that letter]

--Inactive/Deleted characters--
[Links to each letter, which then feature all of the characters which pages start with that letter]

This could be easily edited, and do absolutely nothing to namespaces or URL links!


 
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Collin-Vee
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 03:58 AM UTC  
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I referred to how the contestants list could be changed, but didn't honestly show an example! Well, this is what I was referring to:

http://bit.ly/QXwMuN


 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 04:22 AM UTC  


It seems like there would need to be a group of players dedicated to maintaining the Wiki, then. That could, of course, be easily arranged, if there are enough people interested in doing it!

One problem with the idea of proposing a set format is that, like I said, everyone uses the Wiki for different things. It's hard to suggest a page format that will suit everyone's needs, and even harder to enforce or maintain such a thing when anyone and everyone can edit, add, or delete pages anytime they desire, for any reason they desire. It seems to me that your suggestion of having a "page quality" system, or deleting pages that seem "unnecessary", would require more of a selected moderator group than just a volunteer group. So, how would those moderators be selected, and what standards would be enforced? I know that the regular II mod team doesn't have the time to troll through 1500 pages (with their dozens of edits, additions, and deletions every day), and I also think that organizing the Wiki is the least of CMJ's concerns, when he's worrying about 1) his living conditions, 2) bug fixes, 3) new stories, and 4) new features.

Not trying to shoot you down (if it sounds like I am), just trying to direct the conversation to how anyone could make this idea work. Having ideas is good, but having a suggestion about how those ideas can happen is even better. Big Grin

EDIT: Regarding your example page, do you intend for each letter to be its own link to another page containing alphabetized contestant bios? Or, perhaps, links to alphabetical anchors/sections in a second page containing the whole list?

I'd caution against using a method that requires more pages and more lists; for any maintenance group, and even anyone browsing the Wiki, extra pages and links lead to a lot of clutter and confusion. When you're working on user navigation and accessible design, simpler is always better. Less is more.

DOUBLE EDIT: With "less is more" in mind, you could probably put your little alphabetical index, from your example, at the top of the page, and have everything alphabetized further down on the same page. I think it would also be a good idea not to separate inactive/long-lost characters from the active ones (for multiple reasons) and you'd probably want to put Canon Characters on a separate page.

TRIPLE EDIT (I'm on a roll): I would also suggest not making an "alt character" list separate from a "main character" list, or having any form of identification of whether or not a given character is an alt. I like to think that, on a site where everyone's writing, every character is your main character, even if you have twenty of them.

QUADRUPLE EDIT: Alright, now I'm just messing with you. Big Grin


 
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Collin-Vee
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 04:49 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Escemfer

It seems like there would need to be a group of players dedicated to maintaining the Wiki, then. That could, of course, be easily arranged, if there are enough people interested in doing it!



Partially why I'm posting in the first place! I can easily do a few things myself, but I'm only one man!

Quote by: Escemfer

One problem with the idea of proposing a set format is that



Woah, woah. Hold it. I'm not saying to have a set format. I'm saying to corall the chaos, for the moment. Page format aside, categorization is what we should focus on at the moment. Don't force people to do what you want with THEIR pages, but I'm thinking, for the moment, that the 'official' pages should have a set format, as they are generally actual informational resources.

Quote by: Escemfer

It seems to me that your suggestion of having a "page quality" system, or deleting pages that seem "unnecessary", would require more of a selected moderator group than just a volunteer group.



Not really. Simply have the group discuss if the page has any reason to exist anymore -- Nostalgia and sentimentalism do matter here -- then contact the page owner if it's not worth keeping and ASK. If they say no, then if the information is irrelevant, edit in a warning or some sort of category that indicates as such. If they don't respond, then move it to a category of 'deleted' pages for further discussion, then possibly ACTUALLY delete it. If they're no longer around, and there is not even a small amount of reason to keep the page, then delete it. Rather simple, actually.

Quote by: Escemfer

So, how would those moderators be selected, and what standards would be enforced?



Assuming we go with moderators, a huge team isn't needed, but anyone who's shown to be helpful and has the ability to do the job, I'd think. You only need a few people for this job, and a bit of time.

Quote by: Escemfer

I know that the regular II mod team doesn't have the time to troll through 1500 pages (with their dozens of edits, additions, and deletions every day), and I also think that organizing the Wiki is the least of CMJ's concerns, when he's worrying about 1) his living conditions, 2) bug fixes, 3) new stories, and 4) new features.



Let me clarify: This is the USERS doing this, not CMJ. That's why I'm making an enquirer post, not an email Wink

Quote by: Escemfer

Not trying to shoot you down (if it sounds like I am), just trying to direct the conversation to how anyone could make this idea work. Having ideas is good, but having a suggestion about how those ideas can happen is even better. Big Grin



It doesn't feel like that at all! You're raising good points, and advancing the discussion!

Quote by: Escemfer

EDIT: Regarding your example page, do you intend for each letter to be its own link to another page containing alphabetized contestant bios? Or, perhaps, links to alphabetical anchors/sections in a second page containing the whole list?

I'd caution against using a method that requires more pages and more lists; for any maintenance group, and even anyone browsing the Wiki, extra pages and links lead to a lot of clutter and confusion. When you're working on user navigation and accessible design, simpler is always better. Less is more.

I think it would also be a good idea not to separate inactive/long-lost characters from the active ones (for multiple reasons) and you'd probably want to put Canon Characters on a separate page.

TRIPLE EDIT (I'm on a roll): I would also suggest not making an "alt character" list separate from a "main character" list, or having any form of identification of whether or not a given character is an alt. I like to think that, on a site where everyone's writing, every character is your main character, even if you have twenty of them.



For the record, I DID say that it's just the format I'm going for. Actual categories aren't going to be as jarring.

Quote by: Escemfer

QUADRUPLE EDIT: Alright, now I'm just messing with you. Big Grin



Damn you! I was already preparing the assassin!


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 05:10 AM UTC  
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Hmm... I dislike your plan of the alphabetized list page for bios. Is the Dramatis Personae and its beautiful TOC no good?

Esc, why shouldn't we separate out people we suspect to be dead?

Also, I'm still not quite sure what "comprehensive managing of pages" would mean.

Also also, I'm more than willing to march through the wiki to delete any of the many "one three-word sentence" types of pages there are.

Also also also, maybe we should prevent duplicate pages by establishing a rule for naming pages that could be or not be plural (e.g. "Joker" vs. "Jokers"). But that is a minor point

Finally,

Quote by: Collin-Vee
I'm only one man!
Ahem.
We're only two men, ladies
Oh babies, oh, pretty babies.


 
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Collin-Vee
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 05:17 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Hmm... I dislike your plan of the alphabetized list page for bios. Is the Dramatis Personae and its beautiful TOC no good?


It doesn't HAVE to be for the Contestants List, I was just choosing an example. Plus, it's the idea that counts.

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Also, I'm still not quite sure what "comprehensive managing of pages" would mean.


It's ambiguous purposely, as it's usually responding to things as they come up. >.>

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Also also also, maybe we should prevent duplicate pages by establishing a rule for naming pages that could be or not be plural (e.g. "Joker" vs. "Jokers"). But that is a minor point


This. Yes.

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Ahem.
We're only two men, ladies
Oh babies, oh, pretty babies.


... NO.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 12:34 PM UTC  
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Generally agree with everyone here. I think the most important thing is more (relevant, useful) links. For example a bio with a list of scenes that the character has been in is better than one without. Scenes that have a list of links back to the bio pages of the players involved are an improvement. Some pages could also do with tidying up (being given titles* etc.)

Like Esc, I feel fairly sure that this will never be finished. It's a mammoth project and will need constant attention to maintain. Maybe a better way to think of it is as improving the wiki here and there when you see something that needs doing. Perhaps some suggestions about adding in links on the "How to" page?

To details. I'd be against separating the character list into "current" and "inactive" as that would be changing all the time and it's not the sort of thing that's obvious from just looking at the list, you'd have to go and compare with the contestants list to see if a character hasn't been on the Island in six months (or whatever time limit seems appropriate.) What's wrong with the current list of characters?

The small one line pages, we can delete links to from the Index straight away. The a site map which gives a comprehensive listing of absolutely every page on the wiki. So we can use the Index more constructively.



*While we're on the subject - can anybody tell me why I can't add a title to this page here? All I'm trying to do is add a title "Squathole" at the top and then a link back to the index of pages relating to Squathole at the bottom. It keeps telling me that I'm adding spam. Frown


 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 01:32 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Esc, why shouldn't we separate out people we suspect to be dead?

Because they might not be? People do take breaks from the Island, then come back. (Edit: Also, what HM said... it would be a neverending, difficult, pointless task that ... wait, you know what? Carry on! The list will end up abandoned, thus making the Wiki even more convoluted and confusing. See point below.)

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Also also, I'm more than willing to march through the wiki to delete any of the many "one three-word sentence" types of pages there are.

Please... anyone who's editing the Wiki, take care not to delete obscure jokes about the Island's past just because they're short pages and/or they don't happen to make sense to you! This is the Wiki of Lies -- it is not supposed to be accurate.

Quote by: Collin-Vee

It's probably one of the least-organized and difficult to use wikis I've seen in my life.

A delightful compliment to all the contributors! That's exactly what it's meant to be.

Although, of course, adding to it is always encouraged.


 
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Iriana
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 05:42 PM UTC  
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Does the existing chaos need to be corralled, or does there just need to be a new section that is better organized, exclusively for 1) pages that new players would find useful and 2) resources that players use frequently?

I like the existing chaos, and the wiki carries a lot of history. And I agree that it's called the Wiki of Lies for a reason.


 
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Collin-Vee
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 08:34 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Please... anyone who's editing the Wiki, take care not to delete obscure jokes about the Island's past just because they're short pages and/or they don't happen to make sense to you! This is the Wiki of Lies -- it is not supposed to be accurate.


Mhm! I'm not aiming to delete ANYTHING that's even remotely fun/obscure/confusing. I'm just looking to make the wiki more navigable, whilst POSSIBLY bring the most helpful/amusing pages to the front so they don't get buried!

Quote by: Iriana

Does the existing chaos need to be corralled, or does there just need to be a new section that is better organized, exclusively for 1) pages that new players would find useful and 2) resources that players use frequently?

I like the existing chaos, and the wiki carries a lot of history. And I agree that it's called the Wiki of Lies for a reason.


As I've stated before. It's not the content, it's the navigation that needs fixing. History need not be erased! Simply brought into a place where it can truly shine!

With regards to navigation, it's not the wiki of lies right now, it's the wiki of OHGODWHATISTHISSHIT.


 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 10:21 PM UTC  
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Unfortunately, this contestant may not be on the island anymore! Feel free to read what they left behind, but bear in mind you may not get to use this information.

A petite woman in an immaculately tailored busine-

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! That's beautiful. Best lie ever!


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 10:56 PM UTC  
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Well some more hotlinks would be good.. I think there should be a lot more links to attack and defense.. I remember helping write those.. was fun.

But I'm with Sessine.. I think the Wiki of lies is suppose to be chaotic and deliciously lie filled. Could even use more lies even.


 
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Marly
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 11:12 PM UTC  
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A while ago, as in ages and ages, I wrote (with her permission!) a short biography for Ada in the wiki. I wrote it a certain way, with a certain presentation in mind. Such is the nature of writing. I went to go look over it and link it to someone, to show them the thingy I did. Lo and behold, I found that this

http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=paperwork_reduction_act

had been linked in as a footnote.

A few things I don't like.

First, I had written it in a certain style, with her permission, and this footnote messed up the tone and presentation of the piece. Now, this wiki is an open-edit sort of place, and I can chill with that. I like most of the footnotes people put in, even on a character's biography sometimes. But there's usually a certain type to that. Such as the very silly, very strange, and rather open sort of biography. I'm asking for a bit of consideration and taste, not as in watch-you-mouth but does-this-add-to-it.

Which this did not. Ladies and gentlemen, that link is telling us to take our long-winded biographies and shove them out the window. (A subset point of this is "don't tell me how to write or how much. Edit your editing.")

I understand that the wiki is 78% footnote by mass. I love footnotes. I'm all for footnotes and additions, but I want them done with the consideration of improving things. Edits should improve tone and content. Not take away from it. That's the point of edits.

Second. This was unnecessary and messed with a personal player's page. It's not that it's even my page, my creation, so much as treat personal pages like this with respect. It is someone talking about something very important and personal to them. Their character. Edits and additions, cool! With respect. I will write what I want, as long as I want, and in the manner that I want. But I will not add things to a player's character bio without their permission, or if it is the sort of page that invites it.

I am not even particularly objecting to notes about characters that may not be active: it's tacky, and lacks sufficient knowledge, but it's just an annoyance. I'm sure a lot of people think I don't exist any more. We have had players go away due to medical or personal reasons, and being labeled "Inactive" is an institutional move in a community setting. Cold, dude, but understandable. Just don't tell people how to write or what they might know. Marly reads the Enquirer. That's how she knows things and learned about the Island. And, yes, I refer specifically to this:

Unfortunately, this contestant may not be on the island anymore! Feel free to read what they left behind, but bear in mind you may not get to use this information.

Marly, back when I started, sat on the failboat and read the Enquirer. She read about people and old events, like dominos being set up on the island, and Lelila's century. She read about clans and cake. She got to go wide-eyed at people and say, "you mean you're the one who did THAT" when some old vet showed up. She made mistakes and was utterly confused by AceHigh, and it made it more fun to play and read and write and puzzle this game out for myself. She used some of what I know. Not, for example, all the details of a character's past, but the visible things, or the things that would have been gossip, like That One Time We...

Most of that information was from season one, and written in a way that was not a guide. Guides should be labeled, yes. As in "This was a table compiled in season one." The page on AceHigh telling me to expect a random ruling philosophy every day? Loved it when I first read it.

So, overall? Be respectful in your edits, stick to what you know, and consider the most important rule of editing, its raison d'etre. Does it make it better. I do think most of those pages could be left alone, and an order system imposed instead, such as an index or a catalogue.

The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.


 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 11:41 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Marly

The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.

Um, yeah.

Make lists, go ahead. But don't go scribbling in someone else's bio page unless they're your mate and you're on such good terms that you know they'll just scribble right back in yours.


 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 11:44 PM UTC  


Quote by: Marly

http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=paperwork_reduction_act



Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell. If we're not allowed to tell others how to play pretend on the Island, I don't see why we're allowed to tell others how to write for fun on the Enquirer.


Since there was some question, these are my reasons against separating "inactive" players from "current" players, either by listing them separately in an index or by adding headings to their pages:
1) everyone has a different idea of inactive, dead, missing-in-action, never to return.
2) it adds absolutely nothing to the information on the page.

I think everyone is capable of deciding whether or not a page about someone they've never met and never see online is at all relevant to their Island experience without the aid of a header that may or may not be accurate.

Quote by: Marly

The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.


*thumbs up*


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Monday, October 08 2012 @ 11:52 PM UTC  
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huh looking up the Ada page it is... well really rather short and that sort of footnote on that when dark's bio is huge with no such footnote.. or any footnotes.. is a bit funny to me..


 
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