It's agreed-upon because people have kept using it without knowing what it's actually for. It already is a guideline, just not the guideline people claim it is. And making a tangible list of the community's norms is just going to make it worse. Rule 1and 2 are kept vague so every action can be judged individually based on the context and those involved. Making a list of Thou Shalt Nots is just going to be followed by a dozen-and-a-half exceptions for when Thou May, and they'd be constantly adding more because the community decides what is and isn't acceptable behavior regardless of what is officially labeled.

Newcomers to a community learn the norms by observing and taking part in the community; you don't start a new job and immediately act like you did at your old one. If they don't observe the norms in action and go solely off of the "official" norms, then they don't actually know how the community functions. A noob should look at the rules, see the vagueness used in them, then look to see how they're actually applied within the community. "Don't be a dick? Well, I've got my own thoughts on that, let's see what everyone else thinks."

But if after seeing the vagueness in the rules, they're supplied with a list of clarifications, they have no context with which to help determine when an action that technically falls under the listed guideline is actually determined to be under the guideline. "Oh, no violence in Outposts? Well I just saw those two guys throw rocks at each other's china sets, I better report them." To prevent that, there'd need to be a billion caveats to try and cover every context.

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For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.

Yaknow, perhaps a History of Banter Flavours might explain the unwritten community standards a little better - because most of the things that people get narked about are things that happen (or used to happen) all the time.

Taken one at a time, they weren't that bad - but they ended up being exclusionary. People (KittyMorphs especially) used to cuddle each other all the damn time in Banter and outposts, and a bit of cuddling is fine, and it sure beat the phases that came before that - but we didn't have a bit, we had nothing but. And while it was pretty awesome if you like being cuddled by furry strangers, it did lead to most new players taking a quick look at Banter, adopting a fixed smile, and backing away slowly.

We had the Huge Violent Drama phase which we alleviated by adding more chatrooms and discouraging violence in Outposts, then the Pokemon phase which we pretty much let slide, then the MS Paint Adventures phase which stuck around longer (we had double-digit permutations of Sollux) but fizzled out on its own around the time Global Banter came in, then the Furry CuddlePile phase which we talked about earlier this year and last year, and right now we're... not so much in a phase, which is nice. But people are kinda wary of behaviours which could spread into us having another Phase, so yeah, other players are likely to give you frowny faces if you stagger into Outposts - right past the Medic outside, apparently - clutching a sucking chest wound.

Personally, my belief is that being a dick is deliberately doing something to make someone feel generally bad (yes, I know, I'm a wizard of wordery). Any behavior can make someone feel bad, but that doesn't mean said behavior is dickish. It's when it is made known that that makes said person feel bad, and said action is continued despite that fact, then it becomes dickish. To codify what is and isn't dickery (even in an unofficial term) seems silly to me. It seems like it's a way to see what people can get away with. Can't the code just be to make sure everyone has fun? And not get upset if they don't like your fun? Maybe take it elsewhere if they don't like it? Well, take it elsewhere if you're in a public area. I mean, it really doesn't hurt to move your scene if it's causing other people issues. (Which kinda bleeds into rule 3, I suppose. I think it's 3... I forget. The one about not taking it seriously)

And the same things can be said about Banter, honestly. The way I see it, you should discuss what you like. But if you're in a public chat space and someone asks you to change the subject, just change it, or take it elsewhere. Honestly, the whole rule is about respect. And when you don't have respect for the people of your community, it devolves. And I believe that having to codify what it means to respect others is, in and of itself, a form of disrespect in that it assumes that the community as a whole isn't able to be mature enough to respect each other.

And this! The frowny faces! That is how you know if you're being upsetting! (I mean, not frowny faces, per se, but the idea is there!) It should be as simple as that! Should be like "Whoops, what I did upset these people. Let's not do that around them." But then there's others who won't be upset by it, so you can do that around them, y'know? As mature adults, we should all be able to come to understand (which can be hard, but every truly good thing is) and respect our fellows, without being told how we need to act to do so. We should be able to say "Hmm, if someone did this to me, would I like it?" and then not do it if the answer is a resounding no! (And that means not just the action that is upsetting, but the ignoring of remarks saying said action is upsetting etc.) I mean, we all come from different cultures and backgrounds, so we all see the world differently, right? Which means we all are upset by different things (or nothing, I guess, if you're super zen).

I know I got a little rambly, but the point I'm trying to make is: Why codify when you can just say "respect others and treat them how you want to be treated"? It's simple, it's effective, and it doesn't leave loopholes for people to exploit. Because, in the end, the people who follow the rules are going to follow the rules no matter what they are, and the people who break them are just going to break them, even if they're more strict.

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What do you get when a dragon sneezes? Out of the way.

Oh oh! Also! If the fear is that you don't know when you're crossing the line, then I say: If you have to question if it's a dick move, it probably is.

And everyone slips now and again. I'm pretty sure you're not gonna get banned or even muted for a slip up every now and again. I mean, we're all human (well, most of us) so we make mistakes, yeah? so you get a warning? So what? That basically happens when either a mod is upset by something, or if someone else is upset but is too scared to make it publicly known. Y'know what it does? It tells you that someone is upset by that and you can say "Oh! I should not do that." Warnings aren't bad. They're learning experiences.

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What do you get when a dragon sneezes? Out of the way.

Yes, it's right above me on this same page, but just for clarity's sake, I am going to refer to these posts by Docenspiel and endarr:

AND




The above is why we need to make rules and guidelines of behavior simple. What we can all agree on with what we want, judging by this thread's contents, and my years playing is this: We're not going to agree on everything.

Therefore, what about the rules that our parents, teachers, and Occam taught us?

"If someone asks you, out of character, to stop doing something, you need to stop doing it around them. If someone else asks you to stop doing something, you need to stop doing it around them. Repeat as many times as necessary. Feel free to discuss with the persons you have offended (AFTER having clearly stopped.). Do so politely."

The End.

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"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead

The rules for behavior are already simple. Don't be a dick and don't take it seriously. They're simple enough to allow context to be an important part and clear enough to not confuse the hell out of people. And most importantly, they can change with the community.

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For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.

Alright, so I've gone through and read all of this here stuff and figured I'd put in my two cents. Not as a Moderator but as a person who plays this game. I'll be talking specifically on Banter as it's really where most of the issues are, in my opinion.

Imagine for a moment that Banter Channel is a Food Court in a particularly massive mall. Some tables are full of people sharing chicken fingers and conversation about whatever their plans are, some other people are talking amongst themselves over some questionable taquitos. They're all engaged in their own conversations, but everyone can hear one another. Some people are just walking past on their way someplace else. Some people aren't talking to anyone, relaxing with a churro and just listening to all the other conversations. If you wouldn't talk about it in your local mall, why would you talk about it here?

You see, there's no written rule in the Mall that says "no PDA of any kind" or "Don't tickle strangers" or "Don't slap people." There doesn't need to be. People in the mall are all functioning under the expectation that everyone is going to be decent to one another, why make a rule for something most everyone knows is rude?

The same applies here. Even though this is a grown-up text adventure game, and we're all vaguely protected by this abstract concept of Internet Anonymity, we're all people and should just be decent because it's common sense. If you're ever in doubt about an OOC topic of conversation, think sincerely on how you'd feel overhearing it in a mall food court. Would you feel uncomfortable if someone was talking loudly about a mental illness? About a suicide, or a rape? Would you want to sit near the table where someone's got a hand in someone else's shirt? Even though this is a chatspace, a text world, Banter is public and that's how it should be treated.

Ultimately, though, I have this to say in my official capacity as a Moderator:

Without rehashing all of everyone's individual points, so far a convincing argument (to me) seems to be a combination of 'common sense/treat it as a public space' and 'individual basis'.

The latter is more of interest to my argument, here. Everyone's lines are going to be different; people will always be tolerant of some stuff more than others. So you can pick how carefully you want to tread.

Nevertheless, there are cultures, like CMJ said, and every area has a different one. Maybe the target audience of a page like this isn't necessarily the person who wants to know what the 'rules' are; maybe they want to know the 'culture'. The Wiki page currently serving that (somewhat heavy-handed) purpose is the How To Win Friends And Influence Roleplayers, and I personally think it does a great job of giving some, if not all, of the lay of the land, particularly the points that chafe people most around here.

Maybe what we're after isn't as much any sort of rules, or even strict guidelines that everybody 'should' follow. What I'm hearing people are wanting is a map of what toes not to tread on, because they're worried about that. Maybe we should just expand and/or add to that one page.

I don't know. I'm not an expert, or a genius (socially or academically), and I'm sure as heck not a mod.

Go on, then. Do it. If your edits are awesome, they'll stick around. If they suck, they'll be changed or reverted. It's just bits and bytes, don't be shy.

o7 Yessir!

I'm gonna try to be brief, because this is a subject I've thought a lot about, as a player, over the years, and I have some new insight now that I'm a Mod. Some people have made really excellent points:

Since people seem to be afraid of unexpected Moderator action, let me try to clarify what we do real quick. Since I was made a Mod a couple months ago, I've asked plenty of people to Please Don't, but "chewing them out," muting, or banning isn't part of that routine. People make mistakes, and Moderators are here to politely point out what they did wrong, or what they could have done better. It rarely goes beyond that: a simple request, from a Mod, that you be more sensitive to others in the future. When we do mute a player, it's not because they made a mistake in Banter, or said something rude, or disagreed with us. It's either because they have crossed a hard line (and they are always warned about that line before they get in trouble), or because they have an extensive history of being warned over and over about a specific thing. We don't just mute and ban left and right; we talk to people, in Banter or in Distractions, we try to resolve things cooperatively, and if something's gotten bad, we talk to each other and check our records before considering stronger measures. Please, don't be afraid. I've made a million mistakes, and I'm still standing. We are not going to beat you up for stepping over some invisible line.

Moderators have very few hard lines on behaviors we consider unacceptable. Almost everything is judged on a case-by-case basis. We try to take into account the tone in which things are being said, what's happening in Banter as a whole, how new the player in question is, and so on and so forth, every possible variable. That's why Rule 1 is so vague: between two similar "misbehaviors," one might be more acceptable than the other in a different context. As intelligent people, players are expected to be able to judge for themselves when the context is appropriate for their remark. We all, as players (and Mods), have the capacity to think things through. Sometimes people mistake the tone or context of a situation, and say something inappropriate (or react inappropriately)... and that's okay.

More to the point, about those hard lines: as I said, there are very few of them, on the Mod end of things. When there is a hard line, like talking about or roleplaying rape, we still don't insta-mute people. If the subject comes up, we tell people PLEASE NO, and try to make it clear that it's unacceptable and why. That's all! Nobody gets muted, nobody gets banned. If we tell someone to stop, and they continue, that person does get muted, because that is a hard line, and they did get warned.

So, if we have those hard lines, and know what they are, then why don't we add them to the rules? Simply, as Docenspiel said, because if we list a bunch of things that people Aren't Allowed To Do, then someone's going to come along and say, "but you didn't also say that I couldn't do this other similar thing!" And, honestly, our hard lines (like the rape subject) are easy to avoid anyway if you're being conscientious about Not Being a Dick. Rule 1 basically translates into "Be sensitive to those around you," and if you're doing that, you're probably not going to stumble across making unforgivably offensive comments. And even when you do, Mods are quick to forgive as long as you don't get into the habit of making repeat performances.


SO. Now that I've definitely not been very brief: if you guys really want to make a set of community guidelines beyond the Official Rules, I recommend focusing primarily on what your hard lines are. Are there things that everyone generally agrees they don't want to see in Banter? A short, concise, and clear list will do a lot more good than a long, rambling document full of Dos and Do-Nots and Sometimes and Unless. We also already have a couple of pages about roleplay ettiquette. Be wary that if there are 30 pages of extensive guidelines, nobody is ever going to read it (which is another reason our Rules page is short and to the point). Think about what's important, and focus only on that.

Not the greatest analogy. I've overheard some pretty uncomfortable things in food courts and other public eateries. I think it's something to do with tables. An airport terminal would be a better comparison, I think. There's quite a bit of open space but you can hear everything because everyone's just over your shoulder. The proximity makes you always aware that someone else is hearing your conversation and can interrupt it.

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For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.

So to add a little to what Esc just said... I want everyone who has an issue with the rules to take a moment, visit an Outpost and take a few minutes to actually re-read the FAQs and Site Rules. Seriously. Go do it. (Please? I know some of you haven't in a while!) Just a little challenge from me as a player, because I just went and did it.

Maybe it's just me, but it's not like CMJ just left the rule as "Don't be a dick" and left us hanging here. There's more than two paragraphs of expanded explanation under there!! It might not give yes-and-nos for every situation under the sun, but it gives you a very good idea of what we don't like to see. It even tells you to play nice in NewHome and Global Banter. Heck, it tells you what to do if you aren't sure about something!

It also says poop jokes aren't funny! I will not stand for this!

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For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.

Most of the time they're pretty shitty. (See what I did there? ) Okay, that was really bad. Sorry.

But in all seriousness, they really aren't usually funny. I could live the rest of my life without seeing another poop joke.

I wrote up a thing and then I lost it, so I'm just gonna make this shorter by summarizing what I was writing in response to Escemfer.

She mentioned that the Mods have a set of 'hard lines'. Yes, it's great to all obey our own sense of hard lines and those of the people around us, but I think what people are wanting is to know what that set of Modly lines might be. Chances are, from what I can tell, it's probably mostly already laid out! When I went and re-read the extended FAQ/rules section, it seemed pretty good to me. But the players are't mods, and can't tell.


The aforementioned How to Win Friends and Influence Roleplayers page also appears to have a pretty contentious history. It was started by dizzy, and it's since been modified a lot of times. It had a lot of other stuff that's been removed, for some degree of Reasons or another. But it looks a lot like what I guess people are asking for (of those who are asking for it), as far as I can tell (and that sense is admittedly flawed!)

The old versions are also really heavy-handed, even more than the present one is. That seems to be what CMJ wants to avoid. I remember a related thread a while back about what should and shouldn't be done, back in the day of the Pokemon People. Some people want to be told what to do, and others prefer creative freedom. That's a hard balance to strike, and I'm of the opinion that we're already striking it pretty well... but apparently I'm wrong, because every time this comes up in Banter it becomes a huge discussion.

Ok so.

I honestly agree with Fish - it comes down to the fact that we can't tell other people how to play pretend.

This place is supposed to be welcoming, friendly and a place to foster creativity. Sometimes, not everyone keeps that in mind, myself included.

Frankly, I think that the rules so far are quite clear, and well laid out. People learn by example, and by the atmosphere. The huge majority of the time, people are wonderful and helpful and oh so nice in Banter! Sometimes, tempers flare, or we forget that how we present an idea maybe isn't the best way to go about it.

I like the idea of the wiki, to lay out questions, and maybe clear a few things up. However this made me very sad faced.

That equals a sad Darling.

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Oh dear.

To that end, though, I'm going to try and get the people I personally know were wanting changes made to have a look at that page and tell me what they might want changed. Anonymously, of course, because dammit I don't want people getting in trouble for this stuff-- whenever anyone starts up this discussion, or (for much the same set of reasons) the Mod roster changes, I get this feeling I can only relate to guilt or dread. But I'm not gonna necro the discussion we had back when the 's player changes were implemented.
The point here is either a solution or, failing that, a release valve for that discussion. Here's hoping it works!

Maybe that needs revision; maybe that's in the theme of the silliness of the rest of the wiki; maybe that was just meant as a joke; maybe it was meant as a rehash of some self-jabs that the mods had made at themselves before.
Maybe we just need to send that page to the page about truth being a lie. Or maybe the citation needed does it?

It also brings up another point, though. Is this page going to be intended to be silly, or serious?

Well, seeing as my comment was also a little silly, I'm sure it should be in the vein. All of the stuff on the wiki is a little tongue in cheek. Which I like!

People can be as anonymous as they like. Frankly, if these are their opinions I really want to hear them out!

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Oh dear.

I ask this seriously. Why would anyone get in trouble for suggesting a change to a document that is supposed to be the community's idea of guidelines to help others?

I mean that. Seriously.


The mods are not out to get anyone. They aren't looking for reasons to get people in trouble. We're just here to make sure people don't break the four established rules and (should someone break a rule) make sure that they know why what they did broke that rule so they don't repeat that in the future. We just want this place to be enjoyable for everyone!