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Raine Bofirn
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 01:29 AM UTC  
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As far as things go: if you have to be told specific guidelines on how not to be a dick, there's a problem, just as it's a problem that someone would have to tell you it's not socially acceptable to fart in the middle of a crowd and ask, "Can everyone smell what The Rock is cooking?!" Or that it's not socially acceptable to punt a kid's football into the alligator pond.

I'm not really contributing here, but as far as things go: if someone's going to take offense, or feel bad enough to where they need a Mod, then maybe you shouldn't say it or type it?


Yeah, there ain't no rest for the wiiicked...
 
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rbead
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 01:39 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Raine+Bofirn

As far as things go: if you have to be told specific guidelines on how not to be a dick, there's a problem, just as it's a problem that someone would have to tell you it's not socially acceptable to fart in the middle of a crowd and ask, "Can everyone smell what The Rock is cooking?!" Or that it's not socially acceptable to punt a kid's football into the alligator pond.

I'm not really contributing here, but as far as things go: if someone's going to take offense, or feel bad enough to where they need a Mod, then maybe you shouldn't say it or type it?



If we're talking Story... That comes into question with things like the actions of midgetdom, doesn't it? And if that were impermissible, Carlynne wouldn't be a mod!

If we're talking Banter... right on!


 
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Docenspiel
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 02:43 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Raine+Bofirn

As far as things go: if you have to be told specific guidelines on how not to be a dick, there's a problem, just as it's a problem that someone would have to tell you it's not socially acceptable to fart in the middle of a crowd and ask, "Can everyone smell what The Rock is cooking?!"


I'm doing this the next time I'm in a crowd.


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Genevieve
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 02:44 AM UTC  
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Quote by: rbead

Quote by: Raine+Bofirn

As far as things go: if you have to be told specific guidelines on how not to be a dick, there's a problem, just as it's a problem that someone would have to tell you it's not socially acceptable to fart in the middle of a crowd and ask, "Can everyone smell what The Rock is cooking?!" Or that it's not socially acceptable to punt a kid's football into the alligator pond.

I'm not really contributing here, but as far as things go: if someone's going to take offense, or feel bad enough to where they need a Mod, then maybe you shouldn't say it or type it?



If we're talking Story... That comes into question with things like the actions of midgetdom, doesn't it? And if that were impermissible, Carlynne wouldn't be a mod!

If we're talking Banter... right on!



Carlynne cooks for the Rock, she knows exactly what that smell is.

Also she'd punt the entire child, so that he's got something soft to help pass that football.

I believe Raine was using humor to illustrate her point, and that it wasn't to be taken literally. Big Grin

The point she was trying to make, I think, is that if you think you may offend someone, you probably will.

Story, I believe, operates under the assumption that nobody is Taking It Seriously, so you can get away with quite a lot (even the occasional poop joke! I know it's in the rules not to but hey, I'm all about the poop and here I am. (It's a matter of tastefulness(because the badger shit canon is tasteful)))

I believe that most of what causes issues in the Story channel is when people aren't being aware of their surroundings, are being exclusive, or are trying to force everyone to pay attention to them.

So if Carlynne were to walk into the middle of a funeral procession and then fart and inquire as to if anyone knew what the rock was cooking, I'd be being an absolute dick (unless I got the consent of all those participating beforehand in a nice and respectable way, in which case it was planned and only my character, Carlynne, was being a dick, which is par for the course.)

I hope that clarifies things. Big Grin

Also now I probably am going to fart near my little brother and ask if he can smell what The Rock is cooking because he'd just about die of laughter, so thank you for that one.


 
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Raine Bofirn
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 02:53 AM UTC  
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Feel free to substitute "...smell what Barock is cooking?!" too.

But yeah. Not to be taken literally, but people do play Midgets. That's become something more acceptable, but if they're smacking around floppy dildos and you feel like it should stop, maybe tell them to. There's really a limit on some things.

If you feel like it's in bad taste, and it might be seen that way, think twice before doing it. Anywho.


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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 04:22 AM UTC  
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Quote by: quinn

Quote by: rbead

Anonymously, of course, because dammit I don't want people getting in trouble for this stuff-- whenever anyone starts up this discussion, or (for much the same set of reasons) the Mod roster changes, I get this feeling I can only relate to guilt or dread.



I ask this seriously. Why would anyone get in trouble for suggesting a change to a document that is supposed to be the community's idea of guidelines to help others?

I mean that. Seriously.


The mods are not out to get anyone. They aren't looking for reasons to get people in trouble. We're just here to make sure people don't break the four established rules and (should someone break a rule) make sure that they know why what they did broke that rule so they don't repeat that in the future. We just want this place to be enjoyable for everyone!



Yaknow, this keeps coming up. It's, like, a recurring theme.

In six years of running this game, having had just under two hundred thousand players come and go, we've banned fewer than twenty. About half of them were for Rule 4, so if you're not a pedo, or a creepy "I'm not technically a pedo because reasons" sort of guy, your chances of getting banned in this game are roughly one in twenty thousand. You have to be a total irredeemable smeghead to get banned. Permamutes, much less common than bans, wouldja believe it - permamutes are applied to characters who've been around long enough to develop a shitty reputation, whereas bans are generally handed out to trolls who come in and immediately start posting spam or racist slurs. There are fewer than a dozen players on long-term or permanent mutes, and some of those are only muted in certain areas like Banter, free to post elsewhere. Short-term mutes, IE lasting a couple of days or less? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm guessing around a hundred, maybe a hundred and twenty. Bans and mutes are things we use after carefully explaining to people why others are upset with them, only to see them do the same dumb things again.

That line in the FAQ, about more people having met up and gotten married IRL than have gotten their dumb asses banned? Completely true.

As mods, my team is about the most easy-going that you're ever going to find in any game that isn't a complete cesspit. I would dearly love to know where this paranoia has come from.


 
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Raine Bofirn
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 04:55 AM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: quinn

Quote by: rbead

Anonymously, of course, because dammit I don't want people getting in trouble for this stuff-- whenever anyone starts up this discussion, or (for much the same set of reasons) the Mod roster changes, I get this feeling I can only relate to guilt or dread.



I ask this seriously. Why would anyone get in trouble for suggesting a change to a document that is supposed to be the community's idea of guidelines to help others?

I mean that. Seriously.


The mods are not out to get anyone. They aren't looking for reasons to get people in trouble. We're just here to make sure people don't break the four established rules and (should someone break a rule) make sure that they know why what they did broke that rule so they don't repeat that in the future. We just want this place to be enjoyable for everyone!



Yaknow, this keeps coming up. It's, like, a recurring theme.

In six years of running this game, having had just under two hundred thousand players come and go, we've banned fewer than twenty. About half of them were for Rule 4, so if you're not a pedo, or a creepy "I'm not technically a pedo because reasons" sort of guy, your chances of getting banned in this game are roughly one in twenty thousand. You have to be a total irredeemable smeghead to get banned. Permamutes, much less common than bans, wouldja believe it - permamutes are applied to characters who've been around long enough to develop a shitty reputation, whereas bans are generally handed out to trolls who come in and immediately start posting spam or racist slurs. There are fewer than a dozen players on long-term or permanent mutes, and some of those are only muted in certain areas like Banter, free to post elsewhere. Short-term mutes, IE lasting a couple of days or less? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm guessing around a hundred, maybe a hundred and twenty. Bans and mutes are things we use after carefully explaining to people why others are upset with them, only to see them do the same dumb things again.

That line in the FAQ, about more people having met up and gotten married IRL than have gotten their dumb asses banned? Completely true.

As mods, my team is about the most easy-going that you're ever going to find in any game that isn't a complete cesspit. I would dearly love to know where this paranoia has come from.



Also pointing out that the number of married people increases twice as fast as the bans. Big Grin


Yeah, there ain't no rest for the wiiicked...
 
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rbead
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 04:57 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Raine+Bofirn

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: quinn

Quote by: rbead

Anonymously, of course, because dammit I don't want people getting in trouble for this stuff-- whenever anyone starts up this discussion, or (for much the same set of reasons) the Mod roster changes, I get this feeling I can only relate to guilt or dread.



I ask this seriously. Why would anyone get in trouble for suggesting a change to a document that is supposed to be the community's idea of guidelines to help others?

I mean that. Seriously.


The mods are not out to get anyone. They aren't looking for reasons to get people in trouble. We're just here to make sure people don't break the four established rules and (should someone break a rule) make sure that they know why what they did broke that rule so they don't repeat that in the future. We just want this place to be enjoyable for everyone!



Yaknow, this keeps coming up. It's, like, a recurring theme.

In six years of running this game, having had just under two hundred thousand players come and go, we've banned fewer than twenty. About half of them were for Rule 4, so if you're not a pedo, or a creepy "I'm not technically a pedo because reasons" sort of guy, your chances of getting banned in this game are roughly one in twenty thousand. You have to be a total irredeemable smeghead to get banned. Permamutes, much less common than bans, wouldja believe it - permamutes are applied to characters who've been around long enough to develop a shitty reputation, whereas bans are generally handed out to trolls who come in and immediately start posting spam or racist slurs. There are fewer than a dozen players on long-term or permanent mutes, and some of those are only muted in certain areas like Banter, free to post elsewhere. Short-term mutes, IE lasting a couple of days or less? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm guessing around a hundred, maybe a hundred and twenty. Bans and mutes are things we use after carefully explaining to people why others are upset with them, only to see them do the same dumb things again.

That line in the FAQ, about more people having met up and gotten married IRL than have gotten their dumb asses banned? Completely true.

As mods, my team is about the most easy-going that you're ever going to find in any game that isn't a complete cesspit. I would dearly love to know where this paranoia has come from.



Also pointing out that the number of married people increases twice as fast as the bans. Big Grin



Which is awesome. Hope to contribute to that someday, myself.

I'm not going to air other people's issues with this or that here. That's not the point of this thread, and the current set of mods is certifiably awesome.


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 12:01 PM UTC  
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Quote by: rbead

I wrote up a thing and then I lost it, so I'm just gonna make this shorter by summarizing what I was writing in response to Escemfer.

She mentioned that the Mods have a set of 'hard lines'. Yes, it's great to all obey our own sense of hard lines and those of the people around us, but I think what people are wanting is to know what that set of Modly lines might be. Chances are, from what I can tell, it's probably mostly already laid out! When I went and re-read the extended FAQ/rules section, it seemed pretty good to me. But the players aren't mods, and can't tell.


Ask and ye shall receive! As mods we put a fair bit of effort into writing THIS page. I'm a little sad that someone hasn't linked to it already in this discussion.


 
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Docenspiel
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 01:54 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: quinn

Quote by: rbead

Anonymously, of course, because dammit I don't want people getting in trouble for this stuff-- whenever anyone starts up this discussion, or (for much the same set of reasons) the Mod roster changes, I get this feeling I can only relate to guilt or dread.



I ask this seriously. Why would anyone get in trouble for suggesting a change to a document that is supposed to be the community's idea of guidelines to help others?

I mean that. Seriously.


The mods are not out to get anyone. They aren't looking for reasons to get people in trouble. We're just here to make sure people don't break the four established rules and (should someone break a rule) make sure that they know why what they did broke that rule so they don't repeat that in the future. We just want this place to be enjoyable for everyone!



Yaknow, this keeps coming up. It's, like, a recurring theme.

In six years of running this game, having had just under two hundred thousand players come and go, we've banned fewer than twenty. About half of them were for Rule 4, so if you're not a pedo, or a creepy "I'm not technically a pedo because reasons" sort of guy, your chances of getting banned in this game are roughly one in twenty thousand. You have to be a total irredeemable smeghead to get banned. Permamutes, much less common than bans, wouldja believe it - permamutes are applied to characters who've been around long enough to develop a shitty reputation, whereas bans are generally handed out to trolls who come in and immediately start posting spam or racist slurs. There are fewer than a dozen players on long-term or permanent mutes, and some of those are only muted in certain areas like Banter, free to post elsewhere. Short-term mutes, IE lasting a couple of days or less? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm guessing around a hundred, maybe a hundred and twenty. Bans and mutes are things we use after carefully explaining to people why others are upset with them, only to see them do the same dumb things again.

That line in the FAQ, about more people having met up and gotten married IRL than have gotten their dumb asses banned? Completely true.

As mods, my team is about the most easy-going that you're ever going to find in any game that isn't a complete cesspit. I would dearly love to know where this paranoia has come from.


From what I've seen, it's people getting warnings for their behavior misinforming others of why they were warned. They leave the context out and say "So you can't do this".


For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.
 
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quinn
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 03:07 PM UTC  
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I wrote up a thing and then I lost it, so I'm just gonna make this shorter by summarizing what I was writing in response to Escemfer.

She mentioned that the Mods have a set of 'hard lines'. Yes, it's great to all obey our own sense of hard lines and those of the people around us, but I think what people are wanting is to know what that set of Modly lines might be. Chances are, from what I can tell, it's probably mostly already laid out! When I went and re-read the extended FAQ/rules section, it seemed pretty good to me. But the players aren't mods, and can't tell.


Ask and ye shall receive! As mods we put a fair bit of effort into writing THIS page. I'm a little sad that someone hasn't linked to it already in this discussion.



I linked it back on the first page, as a matter of fact. And said people should read it because that page, just like the Site Rules page in the FAQ, is amazing.


 
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Trowa
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 04:09 PM UTC  
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I would dearly love to know where this paranoia has come from.

From what I've seen, it's people getting warnings for their behavior misinforming others of why they were warned. They leave the context out and say "So you can't do this".


Or, to put it more clearly without negative connotations: People who've received warnings/mutes/bans telling others their side of the story. The moderation policy of this site is to not explain to the general public why someone has been disciplined:

In general, we don't talk to other players about how we've handled a situation. This may cause some frustration in curious bystanders who are dying to know what happened, but hey, we know about the rumour mill. In the long term, it's a lot better for everyone to have your moderators being careful not to feed it. If two players are arguing, we're not going to tell either of them what we said to the other. If someone is banned, we're not going to broadcast the reasons. (And if someone is banned for a Rule 4 violation, don't even ask. We can't tell you.)

As acknowledged by the Mods, the Rumour Mill churns away. In my experience, the folks who get warnings/mutes/bans talk to their Island friends using means outside the Island (GChat, for example), possibly even distributing their chats with the Mods (edited or unedited) to inflame and incite. One result can be paranoia setting in with those who feel guilt-by-association, which can even result in the spread of this paranoia when they try to retell what happened to other players.

Even just personal feelings - either positive or negative - towards a particular Mod can color a player's reaction to certain events and how they explain to others what they perceived to have happened. It probably goes without saying, and may already be common knowledge among the moderation team, but everything they say, either in Banter, Distractions, or e-mail, can and will be repeated to other Island players, and more than likely with a spin the Mod never intended.

Now I don't know if the moderation policy should change, and I'm not going to advocate for it one way or the other - in fact, it's probably had a lot of benefits over the years. After all, when someone feels unjustly muted/banned, it becomes a case of s/he-said against a brick wall of silence. Probably not a bad idea, really - keeps the Mods from contradicting each other - but it also fosters the air of paranoia we've been talking about. I can only recall one case where the reasons behind a permaban were ever revealed in an MoTD, but even then no names were named and everyone just sorta figured it out by playing a guessing game of "who's not logging onto the Island this week?" - those that didn't know the offending player or their friends personally, that is.

I think this ties back to the original Banter conversation: presently the only people that explain why they got warned, muted, or banned are the people who've been warned, muted, or banned themselves, and those they've told that spread the information. Personal feelings get involved, mutate the story, and we end up with the current state of paranoia among those who were never involved in the first place. In my opinion, I'd be very careful about making sure the "How not to be a dick" page doesn't just turn into a series of anecdotes about people who've received warnings/mutes/bans for one thing or another.


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Harris
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 06:27 PM UTC  
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This discussion about distrust of Moderator actions of the past makes me sad.

I feel like I know our longest running Mods at least fairly well (except for Epaphus, but well, I've never heard anything approaching negative about him), and know some of our most recent too. I trust them, based on firsthand information, and even angry secondhand information. I do.
Those of more recent times who I don't know too well, I remain optimistic about, because of what I DO know about them, and the fact that CMJ picked 'em.
I know Dan'll take as good care of us as he possibly can.

That being said, there's a lot of talk here, and on some occasions past that "people are worried about getting in trouble for saying or doing x or y"... and "x and y" are never defined.
People don't want to come forward with their concerns? Other people do it for them? Fine. I get that. I've been so utterly fucking horrified by social interaction in my past that I'd lie, cheat and steal to get out of parties, concerts, dances... the list goes on. And that was withzero explicit or implied threat to myself. I get not wanting to come forward when there's absolute danger, or even the possibilty of it.
It's an unproductive way to go about solving your problems, but I get it. I don't disrespect or even dislike you for it. That would be even worse. I get it, and I simply strenuously do not recommend keeping silent. That's the long and short of that.

What's vital, though, in any strife with other people you have in life, is that your problems are made known. Doesn't matter if you're a moutpiece for someone else's troubles, or you have some of your own. No-one can do anything about a problem they don't know exists.

No-one here has magic powers. No-one is telepathic. Please. Speak. Explain. Please.


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
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Hairy Mary
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 07:52 PM UTC  
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I've been following this thread, reading the posts, then going away and thinking about it, coming back and finding another page of posts to read before I reply, so I have to go away again, and so the cycle repeats. So I'm just going to dive in this time.

Most of this I agree with. What constitutes dickery can't and shouldn't be defined as such. The boundaries are blurred and fractal and would need infinitely many rules to pin down.

One thing that I don't agree with though is the "if you're wondering if what you're doing is dickish, then it probably is" comment. To me, if you're caring about it, then you're already 95% of the way to not being a dick, almost by definition. I think that this bears putting in the preface. I haven't done so yet as it seems controversial, so I'd like to put that out here for discussion first.

On top of that, mention that almost everybody screws up at some point or other. If you apologise and stop when asked then it will be forgiven and forgotten pretty fast and not make you any worse than anybody else.

Lastly, what Harris said above. I can easily understand if people are nervous about their worries. But really, it is better to come and say something than worrying in a corner for ages. You're very welcome to contact any of us mods for advice, we'll be happy to advise and will treat it in confidence.

I fully intend to write something about these last points on the page, but haven't got round to it yet.


 
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rbead
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 10:58 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

As mods, my team is about the most easy-going that you're ever going to find in any game that isn't a complete cesspit. I would dearly love to know where this paranoia has come from.


Quote by: Harris

This discussion about distrust of Moderator actions of the past makes me sad..



Perhaps it is a conversation best had in another thread, or possibly in some anonymous forum.

The reason for the anonymity connects to why people might not be so willing to air possibly-contentious points of view. Argument with a mod, if the mod is presenting the modly and established administrative point of view, could or might be perceived as being uncooperative. I remember a (fairly old-- it was pre-Global Banter) case in which a player was banned for arguing a) with a mod b) in NewHome c) Banter d) about the use of a certain objectionable term e) that may have been either used by him or another player, that part I'm not clear on.

While that's a pretty solid case for administrative action (and our mods have gotten-- and for the most part always been!-- really really good at just talking these things down without needing to resort to those sorts of measures) it still serves as an example of a discussion about moderator action that went south.

People may perceive this discussion as being about, if not exactly then parallel to, moderation and moderation policies. 'If we're not supposed to discuss what should and shouldn't be rules, then we won't try to if we're going to get in trouble for that'. If nothing else, that might be an explanation for the lack of people coming forth with questions about if this or that is permissible-- they think that the laws of the land should be apparent and that they should keep their confusion to themselves.

PS: The more recent (and hotly debated at the time, that was the incident that instilled paranoia/mistrust in several of the people I'm concerned about, though some of them aired their specific grievances at the time) moderation event was handled very well. The very fact that discussion and clarification was allowed, albeit on collective tenterhooks, shows how far we've come. Even if it freaked me out at the time to see people getting so hot and heavy with the discussion, in retrospect I'm glad that we were able to have a discussion about which many people felt quite strongly, and still act reasonably about it. (yeah I know that's what being an adult is but it's still a good thing in my mind Big Grin)


 
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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 11:17 PM UTC  
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You're gonna have to be much less vague, dude. I have literally no idea which incidents you're talking about.


 
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rbead
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 11:21 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

You're gonna have to be much less vague, dude.



Okay. Sorry!

Condensed version of my post:
People might be afraid of speaking up, of asking mods about this or that, and by extension afraid of discussion what should and shouldn't count as 'dickish' because they might think they're not supposed to. They might think it would constitute arguing with a mod. However, recently things have gotten better, and people are becoming more willing to speak up, even if it takes major incidents for discussion to be held. That's awesome.


 
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Docenspiel
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 11:39 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

You're gonna have to be much less vague, dude.



Okay. Sorry!

Condensed version of my post:
People might be afraid of speaking up, of asking mods about this or that, and by extension afraid of discussion what should and shouldn't count as 'dickish' because they might think they're not supposed to. They might think it would constitute arguing with a mod. However, recently things have gotten better, and people are becoming more willing to speak up, even if it takes major incidents for discussion to be held. That's awesome.


Where does it say you can't do that? I've argued with Sessine a number of times; it's practically becoming routine. It doesn't really get anything done but I at least try to voice the concerns I have. And with all the places it says "Don't be afraid to talk to mods", I have no idea where people would get the idea that they aren't open to discussing differing opinions and views.

Mods are people, they can and will make mistakes. They're not your employers, disagreeing with them won't get you in trouble. Blatantly disregarding their opinions will.


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rbead
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 11:44 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Docenspiel

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Quote by: CavemanJoe

You're gonna have to be much less vague, dude.



Okay. Sorry!

Condensed version of my post:
People might be afraid of speaking up, of asking mods about this or that, and by extension afraid of discussion what should and shouldn't count as 'dickish' because they might think they're not supposed to. They might think it would constitute arguing with a mod. However, recently things have gotten better, and people are becoming more willing to speak up, even if it takes major incidents for discussion to be held. That's awesome.


Where does it say you can't do that? I've argued with Sessine a number of times; it's practically becoming routine. It doesn't really get anything done but I at least try to voice the concerns I have. And with all the places it says "Don't be afraid to talk to mods", I have no idea where people would get the idea that they aren't open to discussing differing opinions and views.

Mods are people, they can and will make mistakes. They're not your employers, disagreeing with them won't get you in trouble. Blatantly disregarding their opinions will.



I'm not sure either, but it is what it is. Most sites aren't half as tolerant or reasonable as this one is, and that's a big part of what makes II amazing! It seems to be getting better, though, if the way that these discussions are handled when they crop up in Banter is any indication. (Maybe Banter isn't the best place for them, but it's certainly highly visible...)


 
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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, September 16 2014 @ 11:48 PM UTC  
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Quote by: rbead

Quote by: CavemanJoe

You're gonna have to be much less vague, dude.



Okay. Sorry!

Condensed version of my post:
People might be afraid of speaking up, of asking mods about this or that, and by extension afraid of discussion what should and shouldn't count as 'dickish' because they might think they're not supposed to. They might think it would constitute arguing with a mod. However, recently things have gotten better, and people are becoming more willing to speak up, even if it takes major incidents for discussion to be held. That's awesome.



No, no - don't condense it, tell me what you're actually talking about. What incident or incidents are you referring to? Let's get ourselves on the same page.


 
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