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K.K. Victoria
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 04:42 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe


Perhaps we could do something with a "Caffeine Shakes" debuff, or even a mild addiction / effects resistance penalty (like with smoking, only perhaps not quite so vicious). We need to limit their use, but we need to do so in a way that's fun, variable, and a way that gives the player more decisions to make instead of taking decisions away.



Common effects of drinking four Monster/Rockstar/Redbull/Concentrated Crystal Meth in a Can in one sitting:

Rapid physical shakes,
Jittery, sudden movements
Sleeplessness,
Irritability
nausea,
nervousness
Severe fatigue from withdrawal...

(These I'm getting off of a website.)


Hm. Suppose that maybe there is a... Well, nicotine withdrawal is an attack and defense buff, but when you smoke, you still get the increase...

Maybe an addiction to energy drinks? It's definitely common that people get addicted. You start off the day feeling groggy without your fix, lose some stamina, then chug them down and you feel fine, I suppose.


"You saved Pineapple!"
 
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Tremir
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 05:20 PM UTC  
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When did IBs become a player generated commodity?

And in the same vein, I really think that the other one shots should also be player craftable.
Probably shouldn't be easy or cheap, in stamina or in ingredients, but they should be craftable.


 
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Anonymous: zPATULA
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 05:27 PM UTC  


I'm a fan of the 'crate-sniffing mount' idea. I'd suggest keeping the detection range low - like within one square - and don't give a direction clue. You want something that would help, but not something that would 'overfish'.


 
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Anonymous: Massic
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 05:29 PM UTC  


Quote by: Tremir

When did IBs become a player generated commodity?
*snip*



Since any grenades left in a Jokers backpack have the chance of turning into IBs. Add to that their inherent random and potentially dangerous nature and there just isn't that much demand either.

K.K. Victoria - I'd just like to add one more effect to your list of the hazards of over use of energy drinks:

Dehydration - Your water engorged bladder causes you to spend some time (and stamina) attending to it.


 
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Tremir
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 05:35 PM UTC  
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Grenades left in a Joker's backpack? Nice mechanism.
Haven't tried a joker yet, since I don't have a lot of time to play lately, and I don't think I have enough DKs for them.


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 05:58 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Massic

Quote by: Tremir

When did IBs become a player generated commodity?
*snip*



Since any grenades left in a Jokers backpack have the chance of turning into IBs. Add to that their inherent random and potentially dangerous nature and there just isn't that much demand either.



I don't really know why. I use them all the time, hoping to get lucky and maybe finding a cigarette. It's the only way to spend reck to buy a cigarette, and it's all based on your blind luck.


"You saved Pineapple!"
 
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Anonymous: Massic
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 06:17 PM UTC  


Quote by: K.K.+Victoria


*snip*

I don't really know why. I use them all the time, hoping to get lucky and maybe finding a cigarette. It's the only way to spend reck to buy a cigarette, and it's all based on your blind luck.



True, I am rather biased in that I'm trying to generate as many cigarettes as quickly as possible to fuel my Clan's BG, so the chance of blowing myself to hell is very counterproductive. What I used to do in the past was start using IB's once my stamina reached the 35% mark to try and squeeze some experience, req or charm out of them, so I know there's appeal. I merely meant that there doesn't seem to be the same demand as bang or whoomph grenades for more apparent reasons.


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 07:05 PM UTC  
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I'm strongly against the idea of imposing a penalty for use of a lot of Energy Drinks... UNLESS the severe stamina limitations are at the same time lifted from the Robot and Joker races.

If we're going to be realistic, then the whole thing needs to be made realistic. Right now it's very unrealistic in a lot of ways.* Jokers DO eat meat... Obviously they do -- they gain stamina from cleaning and cooking, same as anyone else. They ought to be able to walk into a restaurant and get a random amount of stamina by ordering a meal.

Robots ought to be able to buy an equivalent chance to plug in at a CC404 'restaurant' -- or maybe even all of them -- and recharge their batteries.

If that could be fixed, then and only then would it be fair to impose an addiction penalty for overuse of Energy Drinks.

And in the meantime, watch and see: eBoy is going to need to receive daily shipments of energy drinks in the same way -- and for the same reason -- that restaurants need regular shipments of meat and produce despite buying small amounts of meat from player characters. Stamina is at the heart of the game. Tinkering with the availability of a race's only purchasable source of extra stamina has a major effect on that race's playability.

* Some of us Jokers, in-character, are quite fond of certain foods... don't suddenly tell us we can't eat! I mean, wave a cinnamon bun under Sessine's nose and watch his reaction!


 
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Pinche Cabron
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 08:23 PM UTC  
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Having only played a Joker for one DK, I completely sympathize and agree with Sessine's position on Energy Drink limitations. The biggest stumbling block for a Joker is the stamina. The random buffs/debuffs are only a problem if you are unwilling or unable to adapt your play (or if like poor Cath, you're having a string of bad luck). I haven't yet played a robot, so I can't speak to their needs for energy drinks from my own experience.

Two suggestions regarding the hoarding:

1) I know eboy's commission has already been cut once, but perhaps it is still too high? I mean, 30% for what is essentially functioning as a broker? Come on! What is his overhead? Rent can't be that high. I suggest reducing his commission to 10%.

2) What if energy drinks found in crates had to be sold at eboy's? They would lack a secret ingredient that only eboy has (possibly mugwump jism), so the only way to use them would be to sell them, then buy them back. Perhaps delay their being added to the supply (and the related price drop associated with selling to eboy) by 1 or 2 game days.

This is a very interesting situation from an economics point of view. CMJ is essentially in the position of the Federal Reserve, in that he controls the energy drink supply and sets eboy's commission rate. I applaud the spirit of how he's tried to set up the island economy to give players more choices to affect the island as a whole and their own destinies. This is much more interesting than if eboy had set prices and an unlimited supply (which I guess would correspond to a socialist, top down economy).

Very interesting. Makes me wonder if the island isn't just some big experiment for someone's thesis. CMJ, you aren't secretly working on a PhD in economics, are you?


 
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Yrk
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 08:46 PM UTC  
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alright, here's a very far out suggestion.

Wait with all of thies changes, especially the one that sais eBoy cant restock on his own, untill you add the pills. Then give the player an alchemy skill, or something similar, that would basically let one manufacture ones own pills and *drum roll* energy drinks!
Possibly combine the alchemy skill with the scavenging to let people create their own bombs and maybe even medikits or teleporters.
An even further out suggestion would be to combine the cooking skill with the scavenging to enable the creation of rat packs.


And some feedback.
The non-restocking energydrinks will pretty much kill the purpose of energy drinks. Because unless you stumble upon a crate while walking between outposts it wouldn't be a profit. Say i head out to hunt some crates, i would be spending quite alott of stamina just walking randomly. Sertainly i would be spending more stamina on traveling than i would get from any energy drink that i might find, if im lucky.


 
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Anonymous: Disaster
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 08:53 PM UTC  



Quote by: K.K.+Victoria

Thanks Joe.

Maybe just give the location of one Crate at a time?

Or how about a very rough reading of where the some of the crates landed?

I mean, dropping crates by airplane isn't a very exact science.

You could ask Misery Guts, "Where'd it land?" He couldn't say, "22,14, exactly." That's ridiculous, especially with all the improbability whatnot going around. It'd be tossed about. Maybe he could say, "There's one somewhere South of Acehigh." or "We dropped a few in the river," or "Some are floating around the lake." Very unspecific, but still a ballpark on where to go for some of them.



I Like the Idea of having a General Area where Crates are Dropped.

"Well it looks like the crates were dropped towards the north end of the Island in the Jungles near Ace High"



Quote by: Beeker

Brainstorming:

the Comm Tent could tell you how many crates were out there yet unclaimed, but not tell you their locations?

I still think the "ohboyohboy!" feeling of finding one is worth not knowing where they are. They're just fun!



I also like the Idea of this, even along side the others.

It would be a good Idea to have this set to where you can see how many there are before you decide to look for them

My Idea:

I think it would be a good idea to Drop the Crates randomly throughout the day(Game or Real)
Lets say
8 Sets of Boxes will be dropped per Real 24 hour day at random times. There can be an announcement in the News
"A Plane flies overhead and drops # Crates in the Jungle"


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 11:08 PM UTC  
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I see how you mean Sessine. I'm not too fond of the Joker's not being able to eat either. I do not think that the nutrition and stamina gained from the food should be random. You aren't doing anything to the food to change it, (Unless your digestive efficiency is changed due to improbability. Then (JOKING) maybe we'd have a 'Food digestive' skill? Certainly one would build up their personal palette of taste...)

I'm still holding by your nutrition and amount you can eat wildly varying daily due to your organs reconfiguring on a regular basis.

Where did I post about this? I kind of forget...

Anyway, I'm sure most of you have heard me spout about it previously....


"You saved Pineapple!"
 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 11:33 PM UTC  


I guess this is the thread to mention it, since we're talking about crates...

I just deleted my entire post because I realized that it was beginning to sound a LOT like one huge political argument... So, for the sake of simplicity:

I HATE CAPITALISM.

I HATE IT EVEN MORE IN GAMES. Isn't everyone supposed to be having fun? That's kind of not going to happen when a minority group of players are running the entire economy. And everyone seems to be agreeing on that point. Those who have money to burn are going to donate and send their clan out to snatch up crates, or buy Req and stock up on overpriced loot from e-Boy's. Those who have loads of time are going to track new days and crate drops and snap up as many as possible, so nobody else can get any later. And as shocking as it may be to these people, some of us have jobs, or school, or families. They can't just throw money at the computer every time we want to gain a level in a game or spend hours upon hours hoarding resources.

And we're putting the game economy in the hands of people who DO have time and money to burn, and who are, obviously, if they're spending those resources, going to be working for their own benefit? Just give e-Boy his shipment of goods, come on. Whether or not I'm doing alright for myself on any particular drive run, I'm not going to be having fun if there's a group of players acting like capitalist jerks and preventing other players from advancing without a hell of a lot of trouble. That's just not cool.


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 11:39 PM UTC  
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Well, hold on a second.

How much does requisition really affect your game? I have money that I don't really know what to do with, I have items that I don't really know what to do with either...

I don't think that people will donate just because of it granting crates. I think that that is just a nice side-effect of being generous.

Yes, there will be the occasion that a clan will use a massive donation to grant crates and all that, but think about it...

They get items. That doesn't really affect anyone else but them, right?

Or they sell them, and get the reck. To... What? Buy a bigger hat? It doesn't help too much to hoard a mess of reck...

Plus, if they do sell them to get the reck, then the items are cheaper for everyone else.

Edit: Also, if anything will get more donations to CMJ? I see absolutely no problem with that. He devotes his time to us in lieu of a job. That's devotion, and I see nothing wrong with it.


"You saved Pineapple!"
 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 11:46 PM UTC  


This go-around, I'm doing peachy. Req and items aren't a big deal to me. They're a big deal to Ebenezer, though. He does a LOT worse in the game than me. So it's a big deal to him, as far as the game goes, whether he can feed his character or buy decent armor or pick up a can of repellent spray. And I'm fairly sure that he's not the only player in the entire game who has a hard go of it. He's a full-time student, by the way. He doesn't really have hours upon hours of free time when he's supposed to be studying, or a nice bit of pocket money. And I'm sure he's not the only one in that situation either.

I have a problem with the idea that some players are going to be taking advantage of crate drops or donations to get ahead in the game at the expense of other players. Energy drinks? Yes, that's an issue. Everyone's admitted it. Certain races need those more than others, and they're already pretty expensive. When the only source of energy drinks is crate drops, what do you think is going to happen? Exactly what everyone else already said will happen. People will use them for themselves, or sell them for a huge profit when they're just getting them for free. And then, hey, some people are paying even more than that for an item that doesn't give you much in return and was originally gained for free.

Req doesn't affect my game that much. It doesn't mean it doesn't affect other people's. And yes, I have a problem with making the game harder for them just because they're less lucky than everyone else.


 
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Giuseppe Lorenzo
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 11:48 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Escemfer

I guess this is the thread to mention it, since we're talking about crates...

I just deleted my entire post because I realized that it was beginning to sound a LOT like one huge political argument... So, for the sake of simplicity:

I HATE CAPITALISM.

I HATE IT EVEN MORE IN GAMES. Isn't everyone supposed to be having fun? That's kind of not going to happen when a minority group of players are running the entire economy. And everyone seems to be agreeing on that point. Those who have money to burn are going to donate and send their clan out to snatch up crates, or buy Req and stock up on overpriced loot from e-Boy's. Those who have loads of time are going to track new days and crate drops and snap up as many as possible, so nobody else can get any later. And as shocking as it may be to these people, some of us have jobs, or school, or families. They can't just throw money at the computer every time we want to gain a level in a game or spend hours upon hours hoarding resources.

And we're putting the game economy in the hands of people who DO have time and money to burn, and who are, obviously, if they're spending those resources, going to be working for their own benefit? Just give e-Boy his shipment of goods, come on. Whether or not I'm doing alright for myself on any particular drive run, I'm not going to be having fun if there's a group of players acting like capitalist jerks and preventing other players from advancing without a hell of a lot of trouble. That's just not cool.

Capitalism may be inherently flawed, but it's better than Socialism or Communism.

When people demand more, the supply will drop, and vice versa. Simple economics, but very important to remember. Capitalist systems work on this basic principle.

And besides, I never found any problems with the in-game economy, myself.


 
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Ebenezer
 Tuesday, September 29 2009 @ 11:54 PM UTC  
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Even though Escemfer said it already, I'll say it again...

When I am in need of Monster Repellent. . . I won't be able to afford it when it's 588 req a can, which is what the price is currently.

When I need to buy it, it's because I can't accumulate enough req to upgrade my armour, so I need some buffs to help. When Monster Repellent 300 req or less a can (I can't remember ever buying it for more than 280 req), then I can make back the cost in fights and still save up to upgrade my weapons and armour.

THAT will be a serious problem for me when I am playing at a challenging rank again.


EDIT: So to answer KK, requisition is important when I am playing at a challenging rank (which, for me, is about rank 4 right now).
I assume that there are other newbs with the same sort of issue... though, I will admit that it might just be because of the way I'm playing the game or something.


 
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Anonymous: Angua
 Wednesday, September 30 2009 @ 12:48 AM UTC  


I tend to agree with those who dislike it. It's a rather annoying feature. One of the better things about II is the fact that as a player you don't have to interact with other players *unless you want to*. This sort of forces more interaction/interference from other players, which spoils the spirit of the game a bit, in my opinion.


 
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Zekiel
 Wednesday, September 30 2009 @ 01:02 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Giuseppe+LorenzoCapitalism may be inherently flawed, but it's better than Socialism or Communism.

When people demand more, the supply will drop, and vice versa. Simple economics, but very important to remember. Capitalist systems work on this basic principle.

And besides, I never found any problems with the in-game economy, myself.[/p]


Doesn't apply in this game's setting. Implementing the new crate system hasn't done anything to the demand, and yet the supply has plummeted. Making supply dependant on donations makes it even more variant, still not doing anything about the demand.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the major 'negative vibe' that's fluxing through the discussions is that the prices will skyrocket.


I've figured the prices at eBoy's work roughly as follows:

Every settlement has a 11 constants defined, 1 for every commodity. The way prices are defined is by a hyperbolic equation, with the current stock of the commodity as independant variable. A hyperbole's formula is: y = k / x, where k is a constant. (In this case, 88 constants, one for each commodity in each settlement.) The k for 'buying at' is the k for 'selling at' * 0.70 rounded off. At very low numbers of stock, it's multiplied with 0.50 instead, to prevent infinite money loops from buying and selling a single item over and over. The graph below shows a hyperbole with k = 1. Imagine stock to be on the x axis, and prices to be on the y axis.



While changing the mechanics of how stock is filled and emptied determines the prices, and changing these mechanics 'the wrong way' will inevitably lead to them skyrocketing, the prices can be changed by editting the formula as well.

You could try y = k / (x+a), effectively shifting the graph left 'a' steps.

You could try y^2 = k / x, or y = sqrt( k / x ), effectively flattening the entire graph and making absolute differences between 'x = low' and 'x = high' smaller without losing your hyperbolic properties. You'd have to adjust k to keep the horizontal asymptote roughly the same, but that's the same simple conversion for all 88 constants.

You could try combining the two or doing whatever else your mathletic brain inspires you to. I'm no expert at balancing games (or at math for that matter), just spewing thoughts and suggestions. If we all keep cracking skulls on this, we'll come up with something most people will like. Unfortunately, as is always the problem with making decisions, not everyone will like the new better than the old, but sometimes change for the sake of change isn't per definition a bad thing. It's what makes evolution work, and we all know what came of that.


If the world didn't suck, we'd fall off.
 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Wednesday, September 30 2009 @ 01:41 AM UTC  


Quote by: Zekiel

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the major 'negative vibe' that's fluxing through the discussions is that the prices will skyrocket.



That's pretty much my argument, Zekiel. I understand that some people will always be less able to afford things than others, but to me it looks like changing the economy this way is going to widen the gap a little more than I personally appreciate. I'm not saying anything against donations or crates or people taking advantage of their donator points from supporting the game. I'm against unbalancing the game economy this way. Supply drops, prices rise, but average income remains the same. Not gonna work.

Plus, Beeker has a point; it's harder to find crates by chance if other people know where they are or when they're dropped to get their first. And it's not as fun to find them if you already knew where they were. Why not drop fewer crates, but more often, and at random intervals throughout the day, independant of donations?


 
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